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1 MAY 19, 1997, Evening Session,
2 (Commencing at 8:00 p.m.)
3 MS. BALDWIN: Mr. Gregory, I hope you
4 aren't thinking we're being difficult, since we gave
5 you all this time to prepare, I'm going to hold you to
6 a maximum of one hour, after which the young man to my
7 left with the stopwatch, will have it go off. I hope
8 you don't mind that.
9 MR. GREGORY: Depending upon how vocal
10 Mr. Steinbrecher is --
11 MS. BALDWIN: If he gets too vocal,
12 keeping in mind I'm going to hold it to an hour, I
13 will ask him to be succinct.
14 MR. STEINBRECHER: Monosyllabic.
15 MR. GREGORY: I hope to finish in much
16 less time.
17 EXAMINATION
18 BY MR. GREGORY:
19 Q Mr. Steinbrecher, my name is Fred
20 Gregory. I think we've met before, and you know that
21 I'm here representing the American Youth Soccer
22 Organization and you are aware of the issues that are
23 being addressed in the grievance and the complaint
24 filed by AYSO, aren't you?
25 A Yes.
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1 Q I was very interested in your
2 discussion of the vertical integration chart here,
3 that we have, and I think it's also part of the
4 Plaintiff's, or rather the Respondent's Exhibit book,
5 in Tab 9.
6 Who are the gatekeepers here in terms
7 of whether a child moves from here to the Olympic
8 Development Program or the Regional Olympic
9 Development Program?
10 A It's generally the coach who is the
11 coach of the state program, and he would select a
12 talent. Actually, there's generally a group of
13 coaches that come together and evaluate the players,
14 and the case, moving all the way up.
15 Q And so the gatekeepers here are the
16 coaches of the National State Associations?
17 A The state coach of that group, yes,
18 sir.
19 Q And the National State Associations
20 have been given the power under the USSF rules, have
21 they not, to operate the national team selection
22 program at the grass roots?
23 A Not solely. But the answer, the short
24 answer is yes. However, if there is any individual
25 who says that they have been excluded or they have not
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1 taken part, and they feel that they should have, we
2 have the coach go see them.
3 Q So if a player knows about the program
4 and takes the step of complaining affirmatively that
5 they were excluded from the program, then you do
6 something, you get another coach out there to take a
7 look?
8 A Correct.
9 Q But if a player didn't know about the
10 program, or knew about it and didn't take the step
11 forward to say, you weren't looking at me, nobody does
12 anything to second-guess that?
13 A Correct. There are some players who
14 don't know the program.
15 Q How does an AYSO player get selected
16 to go into the ODP program on this chart?
17 A Well, certainly they have
18 representation on our Board of Directors and know very
19 well about the ODP program.
20 Q Mr. Haimes knows that?
21 A Yes. My understanding also is that
22 the USYSA has communicated with the AYSO, on the
23 trials, et cetera, per state.
24 Q Where do you get that information?
25 A From the USYSA.
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1 Q Do they give you a report of that?
2 A I have not seen a report on that.
3 Q It's something that's passed along
4 orally?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Is a report of how the National State
7 Associations conduct the player selection program at
8 the grass roots reported to the National Board of
9 Directors?
10 A Can you repeat the question, please,
11 I'm sorry?
12 Q Sure. Is how the national state
13 association coaches select players at the grass roots
14 a subject of report to the USSF Board of Directors?
15 A It hasn't risen that high, and it has
16 gone to the secretary and to the director of
17 coaching.
18 Q So do you know whether there's a
19 formalized, written notice that goes out to players in
20 affiliated and non-affiliated organizations to notify
21 them of the ODP program?
22 A I have been told that, and told, not
23 in writing, that that communication to the AYSO takes
24 place. I have not seen the memo.
25 Q And do you know how the youth players,
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1 and the affiliated and non-affiliated associations are
2 brought into the ODP, rather to the player selection
3 process?
4 A I can just give you an example of that
5 one, when, at times, it's happened outside of that
6 framework. I might personally have seen a player who
7 was playing on our club team that was of Hispanic
8 origin and had language problems, and I asked them if
9 they knew about the ODP, because the player was a
10 very, very good player.
11 They said they had no idea. So I
12 informed them. I also know that many other coaches do
13 the same thing. If you see a talent, you have coaches
14 now all over the country that do scout for us, that
15 those people are attempted to be brought into that
16 program.
17 Q Are those coaches that are scouting in
18 the grass roots for player selection into the more
19 elite programs, are those coaches taking any look at
20 the affiliated and non-affiliated players?
21 A I would say that since our national
22 coach's children play in the AYSO, certainly he's
23 aware of what talent there may be.
24 Q You mean Steve Sampson's children play
25 in AYSO?
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1 A That's right.
2 Q So his child knows about it?
3 A And, perhaps, even Steve.
4 Q I would guess.
5 A I would guess.
6 Q You know what I'm talking about.
7 A Yeah.
8 Q My question is broad-based, isn't it?
9 A Yeah.
10 Q Can you address that question?
11 A If you repeat it again, I probably
12 could answer it succinctly.
13 Q Are there coaches looking at the
14 unaffiliated or affiliated players, those coaches that
15 you said are out scouting the grass roots for players,
16 are they looking beyond the NSA-registered players?
17 A Yes. We have, also, one of our new
18 coordinators of the U-14, whose responsibility it is
19 to look at non-traditional channels of getting in
20 there, into that program, or into that ODP, so the
21 answer is, 3006.
22 Now, is there a mandate from all
23 national coaches to look at the affiliated programs,
24 the answer to that is, no.
25 Q And when was that administrator put in
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1 place?
2 A Last year.
3 Q So 1996?
4 A That's correct.
5 Q Do you remember that you and Don West
6 worked on a vision statement in connection with that
7 Soccer Summit, and I think that's, if I can -- one
8 of the documents --
9 A The year 2005, that soccer in all its
10 forms will become a preeminent sports..., that
11 statement?
12 Q 3006.
13 A 3006, I remember it.
14 Q You remember in Exhibit 4, there are a
15 number of documents in Exhibit 4. I will bring you to
16 a document that says, toward the back, you will find
17 that it has handwriting with the name Don West at the
18 top.
19 Do you find it? All right. Is this
20 the mission statement that you and Mr. West worked
21 out?
22 A This is the vision statement, mission
23 statement and supporting core values that we worked
24 out by, not only Don West and I, but some 250 other
25 people at another meeting in Chicago.
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1 Q Did you agree with this?
2 A 3006.
3 Q And anything about it that you
4 disagreed with?
5 A No.
6 Q You notice under the national team
7 programs, one of the missions was to establish clearly
8 defined paths for player, coach and referee
9 development. Do you see that?
10 A Mm-hm.
11 Q Is that still one of the goals of
12 USSF?
13 A Surely.
14 Q When was this document written?
15 A In '93.
16 Q I think you said in your direct
17 examination, in answer to a question Mr. Alkalay asked
18 you, you said that AYSO doesn't want to participate in
19 the vertical integration that's depicted on this
20 chart.
21 Do you remember that testimony, or
22 have I got it wrong?
23 A I believe that the question was, did
24 they choose to be, to take part in our coaching
25 program. I think that was the specific question.
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1 Q Okay.
2 A And the answer to that question was,
3 that they do not choose to take part in our coaching
4 program, as in schools, et cetera, and it led to the
5 question of whether or not they felt it was better, if
6 their program was better, and that's when I said I
7 don't know whether or not they believe that or not.
8 You have to ask them.
9 Q When the coaching program that you are
10 talking about, that's the program that trains coaches
11 how to coach, right?
12 A 3006.
13 Q That's not a program that, you were
14 not referring in that answer to a program that is
15 designed to coach the elite kids?
16 A Correct.
17 Q You don't contemplate that AYSO should
18 be over here, off chart, running a parallel national
19 team selection program, do you?
20 A I would hope not.
21 Q Good. So this is the only national
22 team selection program, and you have no reason to
23 think that AYSO has expressed anything to USSF saying
24 AYSO players don't want to participate in this
25 national team selection program?
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1 A I have no documentation that tells me
2 they don't want to participate there.
3 Q Now, in the mission statement, or
4 vision statement as you say, the first sort of
5 preamble under mission statement is that USSF should
6 exist to serve as the national governing body for the
7 administration, promotion, and expansion of the sport
8 for the entire soccer community. Do you agree with
9 that?
10 A 3006.
11 Q And the mission will be accomplished
12 by achieving excellence in governance and
13 administration which provides the framework for the
14 creation and ongoing development of standards,
15 policies and procedures which foster consistency in
16 the sport, in cooperation within the soccer
17 community. Do you agree with that?
18 A 3006.
19 Q And the soccer community referenced
20 there was the entire soccer community referenced
21 above; is that right?
22 A That's correct.
23 Q Now, I know that you have given us a
24 lot of images about the success of the national teams,
25 the success of the Olympic teams, the successful
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1 development of the MLS, the A league, USISL. You have
2 talked about the successful marketing and capital
3 development program that you undertook after arriving
4 at USSF, but I would like to take you to the
5 governance and the administration goal that appears at
6 the top of the list of items on this mission statement
7 and ask you to be specific. What has been done to
8 further that goal?
9 A In 1995, the rules that were submitted
10 to reinforce the fact that there is one Federation,
11 which is comprised of three divisions and associate
12 members, affiliate members, et cetera.
13 Those rules and regulations identified
14 that path. But I want to also tell you, if you look
15 at the top sentence, by the year 2005, this is always
16 a work-in-progress, and we are clearly not where we
17 want to be on all of these five areas.
18 Q Well, I suppose I misunderstood this
19 vision statement. It says by the year 2005, soccer in
20 all its forms in the United States should become a
21 preeminent sport, and then the way you were going to
22 get there, right, was to get these things in place
23 under the mission statement so that by the year 2005,
24 you would be there.
25 So I took it to mean that you thought
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1 the governance and administration, the national team
2 program, the membership services, the marketing
3 capital development, and the professional league
4 programs, you should also, you should have those up
5 and working well enough in advance of 2005, so that by
6 2005, soccer is the preeminent sport. Did I read it
7 wrong?
8 A No, you have read that correct.
9 Q But of all these five bullet points,
10 governance and administration, the only thing you can
11 point to are the 1995 rule changes that were the
12 subject of the correspondence between Mr. Haimes and
13 the members of USSF that Mr. Alkalay so eloquently
14 quizzed Mr. Haimes over the word "delegate." Those
15 were the same rule changes, right?
16 A I'm not going to ask you to repeat
17 that question, but maybe more succinctly.
18 Q Thank you for asking me to be more
19 succinct. I will skip that, because it got so
20 argumentative, but the, those are the rule changes in
21 1995 that dropped the word "national" from the
22 affiliate status?
23 A 3006.
24 Q But kept it for the state
25 associations?
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1 A That's correct.
2 Q Was there something about the
3 governance and administration of USSF that was
4 inadequate in 1993 that caused it to be put at the top
5 of the list of things that had to be done in order to
6 be preeminent by the year 2005?
7 A I can tell you that I'm not recalling
8 whether or not this was set in terms of its priority
9 to have done; however, I will tell you that 3006,
10 there was certain situations that existed in 1993,
11 with respect to the Federation that needed to be
12 strengthened.
13 The one goal, if you look at the
14 subjacent arguments on each one of these five areas
15 was to create one Federation, and it was before this
16 period of time that we had, what I referred to as
17 alphabet soup of soccer, and that we had all sorts of
18 acronyms about the allegiance to soccer, and without a
19 unified front, we would never be successful in hosting
20 a World Cup, nor to achieve some of the goals that we
21 had set out for ourselves.
22 So, 3006, the Federation wanted to
23 become a stronger centralized government.
24 Q In terms of serving as the national
25 governing body for the administration, promotion, and
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1 expansion of the sport for the entire soccer
2 community, what did the 1995 rule changes accomplish,
3 in your opinion?
4 A It clearly said that the Federation
5 has three divisions under its immediate governance and
6 accountability, and that is the youth, the amateurs,
7 and the pros, and that 55 state associations are the
8 executing arm of Federation programs and policies in
9 the state associations. That's how I interpret it.
10 Q All right. I won't argue with you
11 about whether or not it did, but I appreciate your
12 answer.
13 You said in answer to a question, that
14 I think Mr. Alkalay asked you earlier, you made
15 mention of a constitutional convention?
16 A 3006.
17 Q I think we heard something earlier
18 from Mr. West about a constitutional convention. That
19 there was a perceived need for a constitutional
20 convention, and that perceived need was expressed in
21 the 1993 Soccer Summit or 1992 in connection with one
22 of the reports. Do you remember that?
23 A 3006, I do.
24 Q Was there a constitutional convention?
25 A No, there was not.
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1 Q The constitutional convention that,
2 the need, there was a perceived need to hold a
3 constitutional convention, and what was that perceived
4 need?
5 A The perceived need was, as I
6 indicated, if you go back to the supporting
7 documentation from the summit for each one of these
8 areas, it was clearly the wish of that summit to have
9 one Federation hopefully under one roof, and that we
10 weren't there, and that a constitutional convention
11 would help it.
12 Q Did the 1995 rule changes address the
13 perceived need for the constitutional convention?
14 A In some corridors, 3006; in some
15 corridors, no.
16 Q Why did it do that?
17 A I think that in some regards, it was
18 clearly identified that there is a reporting flow
19 between the National Council, the USSF, and the
20 national state governing bodies. There are some that
21 didn't think that could, so, there's still debate on
22 whether or not, and what, whatever that meant.
23 Clearly, to me it meant that there's a reporting
24 structure and an accountability.
25 Q All right. And that's what was done
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1 to -- let me withdraw that, and ask you -- maybe I
2 didn't give you an opportunity to answer.
3 What did not happen that was
4 anticipated for a constitutional convention with the
5 adoption of the 1995 rules?
6 A What didn't happen was that as I would
7 have envisioned the constitutional convention in '93,
8 was that we would take the entire rule book, and
9 rework the entire rule book, and that did not occur.
10 Now, one would ask, why did that not
11 occur until this juncture, and I would support that we
12 have been quite busy. We had World Cup tour, we have
13 created a professional league, and we just got through
14 with an Olympiad, so we have not accomplished
15 everything that we set out to accomplish in the vision
16 statement of 1993.
17 Q How would you recast the rules to
18 satisfy the concerns that were expressed, that were
19 perceived necessary for a constitutional convention?
20 MR. ALKALAY: I object. Excuse me. I
21 mean, you are talking, this is the executive
22 director. He's an employee of the Soccer Federation,
23 and we're talking about how would Hank Steinbrecher
24 reorganize or restructure or re --
25 MR. GREGORY: I will withdraw.
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1 MR. ALKALAY: -- or rewrite the rules.
2 We have the rules in the rule book.
3 MR. GREGORY: I will withdraw it.
4 Q You were present at this
5 constitutional convention. What did you hear in terms
6 of a perceived need that required restructuring of the
7 rule book?
8 MR. ALKALAY: I think we have it,
9 however, that there was no constitutional convention.
10 MS. BALDWIN: I think you meant the
11 summit.
12 MR. GREGORY: Did I misspeak? That's
13 possible.
14 MS. BALDWIN: There was no
15 constitutional convention. You had a summit meeting
16 where some determinations were made of things that
17 needed to be done, and obviously, they didn't all get
18 accomplished.
19 MR. GREGORY: Let me start over.
20 Let me try that again. Sorry.
21 Q There was a summit meeting. There
22 were discussions about a perceived need for a
23 constitutional convention that addressed restructuring
24 this rule book. What were those discussions? How was
25 that rule book to be restructured?
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1 A I would say that generally,
2 characterized by simplicity, by making them easier and
3 more user-friendly, that's one area. And clearly,
4 there was a goal of creating one organizing body for
5 soccer in the United States, all under one roof of the
6 USOC.
7 Q Was there a goal of creating access
8 for players who were not registered with NSAs to have
9 a voice in the USSF?
10 A Clearly, there was. Not only in terms
11 of governance, but clearly in terms of the national
12 team development. How do we select our players, and I
13 will tell you that I know of no instance with the AYSO
14 or any other organization where someone's come to us
15 and said that these people have been missed. Can you
16 send someone to look at these people. I don't believe
17 anyone's been excluded in the process.
18 Q All right. You don't know whether they
19 have or not?
20 A Well, I'm sure there's going to be
21 some player somewhere that says he's a good enough
22 player to play.
23 Q Now, when I look at your mission
24 statement in the gray book, national team program
25 establishes a clear path.
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1 Now, do we have a clear path today for
2 an AYSO player to be selected by your national state
3 association coaches?
4 A Yes.
5 Q What is that?
6 A That program there, they are, it is
7 open to all American citizens, not just to people who
8 are USSF or USYSA players. It is open to all American
9 citizens. We do not make the rules and regulations of
10 national, who are, citizen rules in the United States;
11 the integration of the National Immigration and
12 Naturalization Department has; therefore, we have a
13 couple of players who are dual citizens, who happen to
14 play for our national team. It is open to all
15 citizens of the United States. And this is a clearly
16 defined path to national team selection.
17 Q If you know about it, and if the coach
18 came to your All-Star game and saw that, and you were
19 playing in an AYSO All-Star game, the coach went over --
20 A I would say that the responsibility is
21 on all of our organizations of U.S. Soccer to know
22 about this process. It is clear, it has been
23 publicized, and it is also incumbent upon the AYSO or
24 any other group that belongs to the United States
25 Soccer Federation, to say this is one of the methods
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1 to be selected for the national team.
2 MS. BALDWIN: Mr. Gregory, I had asked
3 my dear friend Peter over there not to beat a dead
4 horse. I would ask you to do the same thing.
5 MR. GREGORY: I am moving subjects.
6 MS. BALDWIN: Thank you.
7 Q I asked you before dinner, I gave you
8 a copy of the minutes of the Board of Directors of
9 USSF that we had been, that we had been given prior
10 to, actually those were given to us prior to the
11 hearing on the Motion to Dismiss, and I asked you to
12 look at them, and I believe the panel has those
13 copies.
14 Where did the minutes show USSF
15 governing body is informed of how the youth division
16 operates? Were you able to identify any references?
17 A I beg your pardon, I'm not clear on
18 your question. I'm sorry. You are asking me, in
19 reading this if there's anything in these documents
20 that say that the USYSA should report to the AYSO on
21 this chain of command? Is that your question?
22 Q No, that's not my question. Let me
23 try it again.
24 Where do the minutes show USSF's
25 governing body is informed of how the youth division
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1 operates, USSF's governing body, the Board of
2 Directors of the USSF?
3 A How is the -- I'm struggling with your
4 question -- how is the Board of Directors of USSF, how
5 do they know how the USYSA is governed?
6 Q No, where in the minutes does it show
7 that there is any reporting process to them that they
8 received reports?
9 A I can't answer that without really
10 going through all the minutes. Because quite
11 candidly, I found yours to be very selective.
12 Q You found disagreement with --
13 A Yes, I did.
14 Q -- with Mr. Choi's report?
15 A Yes, I did.
16 MS. BALDWIN: Well, remember, none of
17 us on the panel have seen that particular report.
18 We're looking at this voluminous body of minutes.
19 A Well, I tried to go back, and do due
20 diligence and cross-reference everything that they
21 referenced.
22 MS. BALDWIN: I think the one question
23 he was asking there, is there a reporting procedure
24 for each of the divisions?
25 A Yes, at the Annual General Meeting,
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1 the reports are included in all of our reports.
2 MS. BALDWIN: The meeting of the
3 National Council?
4 A That's correct.
5 MS. BALDWIN: Thank you.
6 Q Sorry.
7 MS. BALDWIN: The meeting of the
8 National Council rather than the meeting of the Board
9 of Directors. So he's saying there isn't a reporting
10 procedure for the Board of Directors.
11 Q Is the same true with respect to how
12 the NSAs have set up their operation of the Federation
13 programs? Is there a reporting process to the Board
14 of Directors?
15 A They report through the USYSA.
16 Q In the same way that you just reported
17 into the National Council?
18 A Their reports are not included in the
19 book of reports of the National Council.
20 Q And do the National State Associations
21 report to the USSF Board of Directors on how they are
22 conducting players' selection at the grass roots?
23 A I would say yes, that that is through
24 the coordination of our coaching program. That this
25 is an ongoing program that there's constant
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1 communication on both directions.
2 Q And so...
3 A I would say yes.
4 Q The extent to which coaches here are
5 going out to the grass roots, that's being reported to
6 the USSF Board of Directors?
7 A No.
8 Q Is there a reporting process to show
9 the policies and reports generated by the state soccer
10 forums?
11 A No.
12 Q Have there been any?
13 A No.
14 Q Earlier today, and perhaps you saw it
15 then, I won't try and dig it out, you saw a chart that
16 said we ask for all of the state association rules,
17 bylaws, and we got back 14 out of the 55.
18 Do you know why we only got 14 out of
19 the 55?
20 A We had 14 --
21 MR. ALKALAY: Oh, I'm sorry.
22 A We had 14 of the 55 located at the
23 Soccer House after three moves of our Federation
24 headquarters. It is also my understanding that the
25 USYSA has a number of them in residence, and I don't
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1 know how many.
2 Q And whatever they have in residence
3 wasn't given to us?
4 A Not to my knowledge.
5 Q Okay. The situations you
6 addressed -- hold on just a second -- minor
7 glitch. It would be one second.
8 The examples you gave of your specific
9 involvement in governance issues, as I recall your
10 testimony, and I'm sure if I miss something you will
11 let me know, one was an address list issue over who
12 had rights to the address list, so they could earn the
13 money over it. The other was an inter-divisional
14 referee dispute, I think you said in Massachusetts.
15 Was this another?
16 A I'm sure there have been others.
17 Right at the top of my mind, I don't recall.
18 Q You remember -- you heard Mr. Filo?
19 A Yeah, there was one in which a state
20 association was actually removed in Maryland. I don't
21 recall the date.
22 Q Do you remember the circumstances?
23 A No, I don't. I just remember that it
24 occurred, and I don't remember the circumstances.
25 Q Were you involved in it?
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1 A No.
2 Q Who was involved in it?
3 A I believe it was the USYSA who
4 ultimately removed them, but I don't know the
5 circumstances surrounding it. You asked me for other
6 examples, and there's one.
7 Q All right. I was asking you, well,
8 maybe my question wasn't clear enough.
9 I was asking you for examples of
10 matters that you were personally involved in.
11 A No, no others.
12 Q Now, you do remember Mr. Filo's
13 testimony from earlier today about the Plano, Texas
14 problem?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And you remember that a grievance was
17 filed both with the USYSA, or a complaint was filed
18 with USYSA, and a grievance was filed with USSF, do
19 you remember that?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Let me take first, a letter from
22 Dick Wilson to Ray Thompsett.
23 Exhibit 11 is a letter from
24 Dick Wilson to Ray Thompsett, a copy to you.
25 Do you remember getting this copy?
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1 A Mm-hm.
2 Q And then following quickly by another
3 letter from me to Melissa Apcel, and we'll have that
4 as 12.
5 (Claimant's Exhibit 12 was marked.)
6 A Exhibit 12, then, is a letter from me
7 to Melissa Apcel dated February 3, 1997. Do you
8 remember that you saw this letter of -- about this
9 time?
10 A Yes.
11 Q On Page 2, which somehow I managed to
12 get unnumbered when I wrote it, it says: AYSO demands
13 the following action to be taken. First bullet, Plano
14 Youth Soccer immediately cease and desist the use of
15 the flyer.
16 Plano Youth Soccer immediately
17 communicate with each and every person to whom the
18 flyer was addressed the fact that interplay with AYSO
19 teams is both sanctioned and encouraged.
20 Third bullet: Plano Youth Soccer
21 immediately communicate with each and every person to
22 whom the flyer was addressed the fact that players who
23 register with either AYSO or North Texas State
24 Association may also register and play with the
25 others, and on.
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1 Asking for emergency involvement on
2 the part of USSF to avoid losing a program and
3 disrupting a registration in Plano, Texas. Do you
4 remember these?
5 A Yes, I remember these.
6 Q And you responded to that, right?
7 A Yes.
8 (Claimant's Exhibit 13 was marked.)
9 MR. GREGORY: And I have Exhibit 13.
10 That wasn't intentional.
11 Q So you wrote to Dave Messersmith, who
12 has already been identified as the president of North
13 Texas State Soccer Association, and you told him:
14 Please take steps to insure that Plano Soccer
15 Association is no longer using that flyer, and 2, that
16 a corrective piece is sent to all persons to whom the
17 flyer has been sent. Do you remember that?
18 A Yes.
19 Q That's your signature, right?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Do you know what flyer was sent? I'm
22 sorry. Do you know what corrective piece was sent?
23 A Let me ask, can I ask staff for
24 documentation?
25 MS. BALDWIN: Yes.
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1 A Melissa, do we have that piece with
2 us?
3 Q Let me ask it this way. Maybe I can
4 speed it up. Is it in the exhibit?
5 MS. BALDWIN: I think we have it.
6 Q Is it Exhibit 8?
7 MS. BALDWIN: It's the thing that has
8 the little box.
9 Q I'm showing it to Mr. Steinbrecher
10 now.
11 A Yes.
12 MS. BALDWIN: We did see that earlier.
13 Q All right. Was there any other
14 corrective piece that you believe has been sent, even
15 up to today, to the players, parents, coaches, and
16 referees of Plano, Texas --
17 A I know of no other.
18 MR. ALKALAY: Mrs. Baldwin, I just want
19 to lodge an objection to this line of questioning,
20 because the letter that was just referred to, the
21 letter that went from Mr. Steinbrecher to David
22 Messersmith, the essence of that was that the
23 Federation was proceeding to appoint a special
24 commission to resolve this dispute in accordance with
25 the provisions of Rule 2101.
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1 Has Mr. Steinbrecher said when he
2 asked, can I consult with staff, he did what the
3 executive director should do, which is that he
4 referred this to the special commission to resolve the
5 dispute. I don't understand where -- we're isolating
6 and spending an enormous amount of time on one
7 incident that went through a Rule 2101 grievance
8 proceeding which is being litigated, if you will, by
9 Mr. Gregory's firm in North Texas in advance of this
10 USOC proceeding, and we are going over and over and
11 over again a process that is under way, currently
12 pending before a grievance proceeding.
13 This is totally irrelevant to anything
14 before this panel.
15 MS. BALDWIN: I happen to disagree with
16 you. The reason that this, this happens to be an
17 example of what they consider at least, and I feel
18 we're obligated to hear it, a flaw in the governance
19 system of USSF as the national governing body for
20 soccer in this country.
21 He is using this as an example, but I
22 believe, and I certainly think I do understand NGB
23 governance as well as almost anybody in this country.
24 I think this is relevant.
25 Now, if he continues longer than I
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1 think we need to hear it, he's rapidly running out of
2 time on any other question that he can ask.
3 MR. GREGORY: I'm getting close to
4 that.
5 Q Let me ask you again to look at
6 Exhibit 8.
7 A Now, may I address myself to that
8 without being succinct?
9 Clearly, we have adhered to the rules
10 and regulations of our organization. I will tell you
11 that upon hearing about this, we have had a number of
12 cases that are resolved between the organizations,
13 between Dick Wilson, and between Ray Thompsett, and I
14 thought it rather interesting that on the eve of a
15 USOC hearing that an attorney would be brought in, and
16 that we would be going through all of this, so I found
17 it to be very, very convenient.
18 So, yes, we have stuck by the letter
19 and the rule as it is. We have tried to have it
20 worked out between the parties, but it's a step beyond
21 that, and I assume it has been because we're here
22 before the USOC.
23 Q Did you find it disconcerting upon the
24 eve of a USOC hearing, a state association in Texas
25 was telling players they couldn't register with AYSO,
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1 or they would be kicked out of the club program?
2 A Sir, I find it disconcerting anytime
3 that the organization has a dispute.
4 Q Did you find it disconcerting that the
5 state association's corrected piece in Exhibit 8 did
6 not address the issue in clear enough terms for
7 anybody to understand?
8 A I think this is still part of the
9 litigation, and the 2101 commission.
10 Q Were you able...
11 A So, therefore I looked at this, and
12 felt that clearly this was a position stated by them,
13 and that this would be resolved through the normal
14 administrative channels.
15 Q Did you, as general secretary of USSF,
16 think that they should take immediate action to
17 prevent the AYSO region in Plano, Texas, from being
18 impacted adversely by conduct you thought was in
19 violation of USSF rules?
20 MS. BALDWIN: Wait just a minute. Now,
21 before he answers that, I think that's almost the same
22 question again. I mean, I think you are putting the
23 executive director of this sport in kind of a
24 difficult position, since they are in the middle of a
25 hearing.
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1 I think you made your point very, very
2 much with the fact that they're correct, the
3 correction they sent out, you know, meaning the
4 notices that went out, and so I think the panel has
5 your point.
6 MR. GREGORY: And the only other point
7 I was trying to get, and Mr. Steinbrecher has
8 certainly agreed to address it without me trying to
9 put a question to him, is that it appeared to AYSO
10 that in the midst of what it considered to be an
11 emergency to save a program, Mr. Steinbrecher and his
12 office was unable to get involved and prevent an
13 ambush of AYSO's registration, and put things back.
14 MR. ALKALAY: This is testimony coming
15 out of an attorney.
16 MR. GREGORY: I'm putting my --
17 MR. ALKALAY: There isn't any testimony
18 about that from anybody who has personal knowledge of
19 it. It's also part of the proceeding.
20 MS. BALDWIN: And I agree with you.
21 MR. GREGORY: I just asked
22 Mr. Steinbrecher, then, to address that concern and
23 that perception.
24 MR. ALKALAY: That's inappropriate.
25 That's Mr. Gregory's perception. That's a completely
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1 inappropriate question.
2 MS. BALDWIN: Let's move on, please.
3 Q If I'm being directed that -- I'll
4 withdraw that.
5 Let me come back to Mr. Steinbrecher
6 then. Mr. Steinbrecher, you perceived that AYSO
7 thought they had an emergency on hand and wanted
8 immediate action, and you directed immediate action;
9 is that right?
10 A Correct.
11 Q The immediate action that happened was
12 not, was only this corrective piece that we see on
13 Exhibit 8?
14 A That's not correct.
15 Q And the grievance?
16 A That's correct.
17 Q And you ordered a grievance. Did you
18 do anything else to try to prevent the AYSO region in
19 Plano, Texas, from being impacted in February of
20 1994, 1997, so that it would be able to proceed with
21 the players it planned to register?
22 A Up to the time of --
23 MR. ALKALAY: I object to this again.
24 Because he did, he explained what he did. This has
25 been asked and answered over and over and over again.
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1 This was referred to a special commission under the
2 grievance proceedings of the Soccer Federation that
3 were in place at the time, and that proceeding is
4 still going on. He took it, he took a step that he
5 thought was required, and now they're not happy with
6 the step that was taken. It wasn't corrective
7 enough.
8 That's the point that they're trying
9 to make. And it didn't happen fast enough, but this
10 went to a, through the dispute resolution mechanisms
11 provided by the Federation. That was the
12 responsibility that Mr. Steinbrecher had. He wasn't
13 going to go to fly to North Texas to personally
14 intervene.
15 MS. BALDWIN: Now, don't you testify
16 either. Neither, both of you stop testifying,
17 please.
18 MR. GREGORY: My only question was, did
19 he do anything else?
20 MR. ALKALAY: He testified to what he
21 did.
22 MR. GREGORY: In February --
23 MS. BALDWIN: This is what I was
24 thinking. I think the thing you are trying to get at
25 is, I think there's probably a flaw within their very
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1 appeals procedure if it takes months to do something
2 that should take weeks.
3 But, I think the question you should
4 ask him is, do you have any emergency hearing
5 procedures. I have read all the rules, and I don't
6 think they probably do.
7 MR. GREGORY: The other flaw -- and
8 that's why I'm asking these questions, I think I'm
9 entitled to an answer -- the other flaw is that there
10 is no governance over the state associations on these
11 matters. They, they cannot direct --
12 MS. BALDWIN: That's a conclusion for
13 us to draw. I don't think that's a statement you need
14 to make to us.
15 MR. LEVY: 12 minutes.
16 MR. GREGORY: 12 minutes, I'm going to
17 finish before that.
18 A I hope so.
19 MR. GREGORY: So do I.
20 MS. BALDWIN: Let me -- do you have
21 an expedited procedure with the USSF, so that a
22 program wouldn't be lost or an athlete wouldn't be
23 lost or --
24 MS. MANKAMYER: Yes.
25 MR. GREGORY: We're not asking you,
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1 Marty.
2 MS. MANKAMYER: I am testimony. I got
3 one done.
4 MS. BALDWIN: Do you?
5 A The answer is yes, we can convene an
6 emergency council. The difficulty here is that both
7 parties feel aggrieved, and not particularly, wanted
8 to go through an emergency panel. We have had cases
9 of athletes who felt they were unduly treated, almost
10 immediate resolution, and a hearing. So I think the
11 president can call an emergency meeting, but, to,
12 clearly both parties on this side felt aggrieved, and
13 that's why we're taking the time to go through the
14 2101 policy.
15 Q Did the other side, did the Plano
16 Youth Soccer Association or North Texas State Soccer
17 Association file a grievance against the AYSO?
18 A No.
19 MS. BALDWIN: May I ask what North
20 Texas felt aggrieved about? I mean, I thought I had
21 read all of this.
22 A They felt that there was undue
23 recruiting of players by the AYSO of the people that
24 were part of their...
25 MS. BALDWIN: I did not see that in the
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1 written documentation.
2 Q And there was no written complaint
3 filed; is that right?
4 A No, not filed, none.
5 Q And where in the rules is this
6 expedited procedure explained?
7 A Let me refer to staff. Larry?
8 Melissa?
9 MR. MONACO: The athletes.
10 Q I'm not talking -- I heard the
11 comment, the comment was about athletes. Can we
12 address where there is in the rules an emergency
13 procedure to address something like the Plano, Texas
14 problem?
15 A Well, on -- the Plano, Texas problem
16 is clearly 2101.
17 Q Just the grievance, that we asked to
18 be --
19 A Yes, it's in the grievance procedures.
20 MR. GREGORY: All right. I have no
21 further questions.
22 MS. BALDWIN: Okay.
23 EXAMINATION
24 BY MR. ALKALAY:
25 Q With regard to the Olympic Development
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1 Program, isn't it the clear, unambiguous policy of the
2 United States Soccer Federation to include as many
3 kids as possible --
4 A Yes.
5 Q -- in the program. And the program is
6 anything but excluding, isn't that right?
7 A Yes.
8 Q It's an open invitation to every
9 soccer player in the United States who is a United
10 States citizen?
11 A The test of that is playing, and I
12 will tell you that who's playing come from such a
13 broad background. Not strictly through just one
14 channel of being able to be identified and play for a
15 national team.
16 Q In fact, you have seen, have you not,
17 a calendar that AYSO has produced in which they
18 actually try to take credit for various players who
19 are currently playing on the men's national team?
20 A I think in the documents we
21 received --
22 Q And the women's national team?
23 A -- they make mention of that.
24 Q And it is universally known, is it
25 not, Hank, that, yes, they may have played in an AYSO
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1 under-4, under-6 or under-8, but that they went
2 through the Soccer Federation Olympic Development
3 Program to achieve the status that they ultimately
4 achieved?
5 A I would say that generally speaking
6 coming from the AYSO, those people who did go through
7 the normal channel, that's correct. There are
8 players, however, that do not go through this normal
9 channel of the ODP. I will make specific reference to
10 American citizens from abroad that have every right to
11 play for a national team of the United States of
12 America and have been selected on the basis of their
13 performance only. And there are three of those
14 individuals who now play for the United States
15 national team.
16 Q And while I know this isn't
17 necessarily within the purview of your
18 responsibilities, you are aware, are you not, that the
19 executive director of the USYSA sends out a notice to
20 all the national, regional, and state ODP
21 administrators, telling them that they should be
22 notifying affiliated organizations of ODP tryouts at
23 the local level, at the state level, at the national
24 level, you know that, don't you?
25 MR. GREGORY: Objection.
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1 A Correct.
2 MR. GREGORY: This is Mr. Alkalay's
3 witness. If he's going to lead like that...
4 MR. ALKALAY: I'm trying to save some
5 time.
6 MR. GREGORY: I think we need to hear
7 Mr. Steinbrecher.
8 MR. ALKALAY: Let me show you --
9 MR. GREGORY: No, he's already answered
10 that question once, and he wasn't able to give the
11 details. Mr. Alkalay would like him to have those
12 details, I'm sure.
13 MR. ALKALAY: Maybe I will help him out
14 a little, Fred.
15 MS. BALDWIN: Fred, you gave a little
16 help this morning. He's giving him a little help
17 tonight.
18 Q (By Mr. Alkalay) I don't know what
19 we're up to.
20 (Respondent's Deposition Exhibit G was
21 marked.)
22 Q This is a memorandum, dated October 2,
23 1995; is it not?
24 A Yes.
25 Q And it's sent, it's addressed to all
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1 the national, regional and state ODP administrators?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And it's from Ray Thompsett?
4 A Mm-hm.
5 Q He's the executive director, was the
6 executive director?
7 A Was, is no longer.
8 Q I'm going to read it: U.S. Youth
9 Soccer is the official youth division of U.S. Soccer
10 and the administrative arm for the youth Olympic
11 Development Program at all levels. As a result of
12 this, U.S. Youth Soccer has the responsibility to
13 notify any affiliated organizations of ODP tryouts at
14 local, state and national levels. Players of all
15 affiliated youth organizations must be afforded the
16 same opportunity as U.S. Youth Soccer Players.
17 Is that, in fact, the policy of the
18 United States Soccer Federation?
19 A Yes. Well, I will also, at the risk
20 of sounding sarcastic, it would pertain to AYSO, with
21 their domestic leagues. It would not pertain to AYSO
22 chapter in Moscow, okay?
23 Q Okay. And...
24 A Unless they're American citizens, but
25 they're...
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1 Q All right. And then this is asking
2 these national, regional, and state ODP administrators
3 if there are any affiliates in your area identifying
4 AYSO and SAY, please add them to your mailing list for
5 any ODP information; isn't that correct?
6 A Mm-hm.
7 Q I think you have to say yes, Hank, for
8 the record.
9 A Yes.
10 MS. BALDWIN: She has trouble spelling
11 mm-hm.
12 MR. ROWAN: Actually, she's very good
13 at it, because she's had lots of practice.
14 Q Now, at the risk of sounding like I'm
15 summing up, and to some extent maybe I am, you have
16 heard a great deal about this Plano incident. And we
17 have heard a great deal about how this was sent to a
18 Rule 2101 special commission, and I think you
19 testified that both sides felt aggrieved. I think you
20 said that the North Texas Youth Soccer Association
21 felt aggrieved because it felt that AYSO was engaged
22 in unethical recruiting of players; is that right?
23 A Yes.
24 MS. BALDWIN: And is that hearsay?
25 MR. LEVY: Rank hearsay.
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1 MR. ALKALAY: It's not as rank as what
2 you heard before.
3 MR. GREGORY: How would you rank it?
4 MR. ROWAN: It's plenty rank.
5 MR. ALKALAY: But it is hearsay.
6 But I'm not asking the question to
7 prove the truth of what's being asserted. I am asking
8 the question to address Mr. Steinbrecher's state of
9 mind.
10 Q In your opinion, in your opinion you
11 heard Mr. Gregory say that this was an emergency,
12 correct?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And it was only an emergency as it was
15 perceived by AYSO, because they thought they were
16 losing players to USYSA or to a local National State
17 Association, correct?
18 A I assume that.
19 Q And isn't it also fair to assume that
20 it wasn't that kids weren't playing soccer, kids were
21 playing soccer, but with what AYSO perceived as an
22 emergency, was that they were playing for a
23 competitor; isn't that right?
24 A I assumed that as well.
25 MR. ALKALAY: I have nothing further.
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1 A Oh, he's got another shot.
2 MR. ROWAN: Only if the boss says so.
3 MS. BALDWIN: No, what?
4 He did his examination. He did his
5 re-direct. He did his re-direct. Now, why are you
6 going to re-cross this? The panel has probably, I
7 would guess, a half an hour of questions to ask here.
8 MR. GREGORY: A couple.
9 MS. BALDWIN: I mean, because I can
10 feel them all moving around in their seats.
11 MR. GREGORY: Maybe about five
12 questions.
13 MS. BALDWIN: The panel has five
14 questions?
15 MR. GREGORY: No, I have five. Can I
16 get five questions in, and then that might help
17 focus? It depends.
18 MS. KELLY: Is it a new subject?
19 MR. GREGORY: It's on this --
20 MS. BALDWIN: Strictly --
21 MR. GREGORY: Strictly re-cross.
22 MS. BALDWIN: Re-direct.
23 MR. GREGORY: Re-cross, excuse me. I'm
24 getting tired, too.
25 EXAMINATION
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1 BY MR. GREGORY:
2 Q You were shown this memorandum of
3 November, 1992 of Ray Thompsett?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Is Ray Thompsett still the executive
6 director?
7 A No.
8 Q Is there an executive director now?
9 A No.
10 Q Was there a perceived need in October
11 of 1995 to send out this notice so that ODP officials
12 would understand their obligation to affiliated
13 organizations?
14 A Was there a perceived need?
15 Q Was there a problem that needed to be
16 clarified?
17 A I take it as a communication device
18 that this is a program. Please inform everyone that
19 you know to take part.
20 Q In fact, did you ever see this notice
21 before it was handed to you?
22 MR. ALKALAY: First of all, that's five
23 questions already. Are you objecting to the fact that
24 this was sent?
25 MR. GREGORY: I'm addressing the
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1 panel. Should I address --
2 MS. BALDWIN: No, don't address.
3 MR. ALKALAY: It's a rhetorical
4 question, I'm sorry.
5 Q Did anybody report back to you that
6 this was sent?
7 A I'm sure I have seen a copy of this.
8 I don't have it on the top of my mind that this is
9 something I have read, but I certainly know that this
10 was...
11 MS. BALDWIN: He was carbon copied on
12 it.
13 MR. GREGORY: Not on the copy I have.
14 MS. BALDWIN: He is on the copy I
15 have. Are you talking the January -- oh, you are
16 talking the memo. You're using the 1995, I guess.
17 Q (By Mr. Gregory) Did anybody report
18 back to you about how they went about informing
19 affiliated organizations of these, of the, that they
20 had performed these duties?
21 A No.
22 Q Now, you first heard of the Plano,
23 Texas grievance, sorry, you first heard of the North
24 Texas Soccer Association grievance about the AYSO
25 program, when?
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1 A I don't recall the exact date.
2 Q And it was not put into writing in the
3 form of a grievance that you were prepared to log
4 against AYSO; is that right?
5 A I'm not following that, I'm sorry.
6 Q Whatever it was, discussion with you,
7 was not put into a written grievance filed against the
8 AYSO?
9 MR. ALKALAY: That's been asked and
10 answered now three times.
11 MR. GREGORY: So AYSO was not able to
12 respond to it; is that right?
13 A Correct.
14 Q And hasn't yet been able to respond to
15 that allegation?
16 A There was no official grievance
17 lodged.
18 MS. BALDWIN: Again, we're re-covering
19 this ground.
20 MR. GREGORY: One more.
21 MS. BALDWIN: You have one more
22 question, and that's it.
23 Q And yet based on an oral statement
24 about complaints about recruiting, you decided that
25 the Plano, Texas AYSO problem was not an emergency
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1 that you were going to deal with?
2 MR. ALKALAY: Objection. We've gone
3 over this repeatedly. He did what he did, which is
4 that he referred it to a 2101 special commission.
5 MS. BALDWIN: And that objection is
6 sustained.
7 MR. GREGORY: Thank you. No further
8 questions.
9 MS. BALDWIN: Panel, do you have any
10 questions? We'll start with Tom.
11 EXAMINATION
12 BY MR. SATROM:
13 Q Focusing on the decision making and
14 governance issues that are prevalent in my mind, if
15 you were going to retain a program director for the
16 youth division, who would be making that, who would
17 select that person? Who selected the last one?
18 A The executive director of the youth.
19 Q That would head up their program,
20 their programs for the youth, for youth, you are the
21 NGB?
22 A Yeah.
23 Q Who selects the person that's going to
24 head up the whole youth, all the programs?
25 A So what you are referring to, I just
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1 want to be clarified, the question. What you are
2 asking, who would select the executive director? --
3 MS. BALDWIN: For USYSA?
4 A -- of USYSA? That would be the Board
5 of Directors of USYSA.
6 Q What involvement do you or the Board
7 of Directors of USSF have in selecting that person or
8 firing that person or controlling that person?
9 DR. CONTIGUGLIA: Can I answer those
10 questions?
11 MS. BALDWIN: I think you can answer
12 those questions.
13 DR. CONTIGUGLIA: I can answer those
14 much better than he can.
15 MR. SATROM: May we dispense with the
16 swearing in and go ahead and tell us?
17 MR. ALKALAY: Swear him in?
18 MR. STEINBRECHER: One of my question
19 is, you may have a lot of questions that will be
20 answered during testimony from other witnesses.
21 MR. ALKALAY: No, I think, let's
22 address them right now, if these --
23 MS. BALDWIN: They are, see, in my mind
24 they are so interrelated because when I had asked
25 about your vertical integration chart and saying, what
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1 does that have to do with governance, I think one of
2 the obligations of this panel is to try to thoroughly
3 understand the governance of USSF, because it is, at
4 the very least complex.
5 MR. ALKALAY: I think Dr. Contiguglia
6 is in a better position to respond to those questions.
7 MS. BALDWIN: I have no objection, if
8 the other side doesn't, that we have him sworn in, at
9 least -- we ask; if he can't answer it, then he can't
10 answer it.
11 MR. GREGORY: It gets a little free
12 flow, but this is an administrative process, and it's
13 not a court of law.
14 MS. BALDWIN: I think --
15 MR. GREGORY: I think however you feel
16 you need to proceed to get to the questions and the
17 answers.
18 MS. BALDWIN: I think that helps give
19 us some of the more definitive answers that we need
20 dealing with the governance issues, which is really a
21 lot of what we're here about.
22 MR. GREGORY: It does make my
23 cross-examination more complex, and I hope that in
24 that regard I will get a little leniency on whether I
25 cross-examination Dr. Contiguglia now, or just leave
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1 it until he gives his testimony.
2 MS. BALDWIN: What I would really like
3 him to do tonight, and I would like my panel to
4 confine themselves to it, are strictly
5 information-gathering questions.
6 DR. CONTIGUGLIA: I think I'm the
7 appropriate person to do that for you.
8 MS. BALDWIN: That we feel that we
9 think he can answer in a more precise way than Hank
10 can answer, and then if it's something you think you
11 can, we'll do it that way.
12 MS. BALDWIN: Do you think he ought to
13 be sworn in though? So would you please swear him
14 in?
15 DR. ROBERT CONTIGUGLIA,
16 the witness herein, having been first duly sworn to
17 state the whole truth, testified on his oath as
18 follows:
19 MS. BALDWIN: So, what I would like
20 everybody to do is, Hank is the one on the witness
21 stand right now. The questions will be directed to
22 him. If he feels that he can't answer them
23 adequately, then he may refer that question.
24 DR. CONTIGUGLIA: First, let me
25 introduce myself. I'm Dr. Bob Contiguglia, I'm the
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1 past vice-president for youth for the United States
2 Soccer Federation.
3 The position of the vice-president for
4 youth is an elected position, and I sit, or sat on the
5 Board of Directors of the United States Soccer
6 Federation along with four other members of the youth
7 Board of Directors, okay.
8 So, five members of the youth Board of
9 Directors and an 8-member board or a 9-member board
10 sit on the U.S. Soccer Federation and then those five
11 members also sit on the U.S. Youth Soccer Board of
12 Directors, so the governance is passed from the
13 National Council that makes the rules, the National
14 Council makes the rules of the Federation, and then
15 they're passed onto the Board of Directors and onto
16 the Board of Directors of the United States Youth
17 Soccer Association, because they're basically
18 overlapping Boards of Directors. Does that -- I
19 don't know.
20 EXAMINATION
21 BY MR. SATROM:
22 Q You have got interlocking directors is
23 what you are saying? But, a couple of quick
24 questions, and given the hour, I will try to be
25 brief. Who elected you?
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1 DR. CONTIGUGLIA: The state
2 associations have a, an electment, the national state
3 association.
4 MS. KELLY: Who elected you to what
5 position, exactly.
6 DR. CONTIGUGLIA: Two positions,
7 chairman of the United States Youth Soccer
8 Association, and vice-president for youth of the
9 United States Soccer Federation.
10 Q (By Mr. Satrom) Focusing on paid
11 positions now, if you had a hired staff person in
12 charge of the youth programs, who selects that person,
13 what entity, what level?
14 DR. CONTIGUGLIA: The Board of
15 Directors.
16 MR. SATROM: Well, do you want to
17 answer that.
18 MR. STEINBRECHER: The Board of
19 Directors of the USYSA.
20 Q (By Satrom) What involvement do you or
21 the Board of Directors or USSF have in the selection
22 of that process, the control of that individual or the
23 capacity to fire that individual or whatever?
24 A (By Mr. Steinbrecher) This actually
25 was done before my tenure, so I don't know exactly
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1 what the rule is on whether or not we have a pass-off
2 or not, a pass on that, or an approval on that. Ray
3 retired recently, so perhaps Bob can give you more
4 explanation?
5 A (By Dr. Contiguglia) I think you have
6 to clarify what your perception of an executive
7 director is versus what we call an executive director.
8 Q I didn't put any nomenclature in the
9 title. My concern is for grass-roots programs, or
10 development of these youth, that top level staff
11 person that's designing that, who selects him, and who
12 controls him or her?
13 A That individual is selected by the
14 Board of Directors of the Youth Soccer Association,
15 but he is not directly responsible for implementing
16 the programs of the United States Soccer Federation.
17 Those programs are implemented through the committees
18 of the United States Soccer Federation, such as the
19 coaching committee, and the referee committee.
20 Those committees, which are directly
21 under the Board of Directors in the United States
22 Soccer Federation oversee coaching in the United
23 States, referees in the United States, and national
24 team development. Those programs from those
25 committees of the Federation go down through the
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1 vertically integrated system through the state,
2 through the regions, and state associations, and
3 they're overseen directly by Federation committees, as
4 well as youth groups.
5 EXAMINATION
6 BY MR. SATROM:
7 Q (By Mr. Satrom) But in the
8 implementation of those programs, would it be fair to
9 state that that person would be answerable to the
10 USYSA entity more so than USSF?
11 A (By Dr. Contiguglia) Yes, well, as it
12 pertains to the programs within the states, within the
13 states, yes.
14 Q Okay. Then a quick question on your
15 Olympic team. We just finished selecting that team --
16 you did?
17 A Yeah.
18 Q Who had the decision-making authority
19 for the tryout procedures or how you were going to
20 select that team? What level was that decision made?
21 A Okay. Well, first of all, you have to
22 understand that with an organization of several
23 million members, we have grass-roots tryouts, and each
24 state association is responsible for starting the
25 process.
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1 Q Was this driven from the bottom up, or
2 is it driven from the top down?
3 A Which? Was what driven from the
4 bottom up?
5 Q When you are going to form or select a
6 Men's Olympic team and a Women's Olympic team, who
7 determines how that's going to be handled, what the
8 procedure will be for tryouts?
9 MR. ALKALAY: I think Hank --
10 MR. STEINBRECHER: The procedure is as
11 follows: There are tryouts throughout the country
12 with the ODP program, the Olympic Development
13 Program. The coaches will convene, select individual
14 players, the national coach has the authority to
15 select the players that he wishes. He recommends to
16 us, we recommend to the USOC, who then appoints the
17 team.
18 MS. BALDWIN: Who is "us"?
19 MR. STEINBRECHER: U.S. Soccer, United
20 States Soccer Federation.
21 MS. BALDWIN: USSF, your Board of
22 Directors?
23 MR. STEINBRECHER: The secretary.
24 MS. BALDWIN: Just the secretary.
25 MR. STEINBRECHER: Yes. The Board of
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1 Directors does not select the team. The coaching
2 staff recommends to the secretary.
3 MS. BALDWIN: Nor set the criteria.
4 MR. STEINBRECHER: Nor set the
5 criteria, the coaching department does that. The
6 coaching committee does that.
7 MR. SATROM: I have one last question,
8 if I could Sandy, and then I'm done at least for now,
9 but on these youth disputes that we were talking
10 about, if a youth was going to file a grievance, how
11 does that work? Can somebody -- Hank, can you give me
12 a summary of that? Rule 2108, I believe, out of your
13 rules, states the National Board of Directors shall
14 prescribe a policy, this is a grievance procedure to
15 the extent not otherwise already provided. These
16 rules provide for grievance procedures including
17 procedures for the prompt resolutions of grievances.
18 So it incorporates it by reference, but I don't see
19 any procedures, and I'm curious.
20 MR. STEINBRECHER: If we have a
21 grievance, the general procedure, there has been, when
22 I hear of a problem that surfaces to the level of the
23 secretary, I generally have spoken with the individual
24 parties, and asked them to resolve. We have also done
25 that on a national level, asking the president of
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1 USYSA, the chairman of the USYSA, chairman of the AYSO
2 to come together and meet privately and see if we can
3 do this, get things resolved.
4 What I found was the better way to
5 manage our organization is through that type of work.
6 MR. SATROM: I agree with you.
7 MR. STEINBRECHER: Then the president
8 appoints a committee to sit and hear a grievance, and
9 make a disposition.
10 MR. SATROM: Where is that procedure
11 set forth?
12 MR. MONACO: 9001. Page 175.
13 MS. BALDWIN: Does it have specific
14 time frames on it, Hank?
15 MR. STEINBRECHER: Mm-hm, I think it's
16 90 days plus 30; is that it, Larry?
17 MR. MONACO: This just says, prompt
18 resolution of the dates.
19 MR. SATROM: Is that procedure the same
20 for an athlete who belongs to the AYSO as it is for
21 somebody who belongs to...
22 MR. MONACO: Any athlete.
23 MR. STEINBRECHER: Any athlete or not.
24 MS. BALDWIN: Whether they're a member
25 of your organization or not?
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1 MR. SATROM: I'm not going to drag this
2 issue out, but there are some sections that I'm going
3 to want to review tonight that do have different,
4 under 2104, in your appeals, there seems to be a
5 little different procedure for the decisions rendered
6 by an affiliated division, as opposed to other
7 divisions.
8 MR. STEINBRECHER: I will read it as
9 well.
10 MR. SATROM: But I have taken enough
11 time. We should move on, I guess.
12 MS. KELLY: Am I next?
13 EXAMINATION
14 BY MS. KELLY:
15 Q I have the impression that the
16 National State Associations really come from your
17 organization to the U.S. Soccer Federation. In other
18 words, they're really part of your organization first,
19 essentially; is that correct, incorrect?
20 A (By Dr. Contiguglia) I think it's
21 incorrect. I think if you look historically as to how
22 the United States Soccer Federation originated back in
23 the 1970S or so, it was originally structured by state
24 associations, so the Federation in and of itself,
25 historically has always been organized by state
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1 associations as are many other NGBs. It was in the
2 late '70s that we divided into youth and amateur or
3 adult-oriented organizations within each state
4 association, but the Federation has always been state
5 associations, that's always been the Federation.
6 Q So now if they join to play locally,
7 they are not joining USYSA, they are joining USSF?
8 A They're joining both.
9 Q What are they joining primarily?
10 A They're joining both primarily.
11 MS. BALDWIN: May I ask a question?
12 Let me interrupt for just a minute.
13 Hank, what do their membership cards
14 say? You said you don't have a membership list, which
15 really concerned me, of all your members that belong
16 to the national state organizations.
17 MR. STEINBRECHER: We do now.
18 MS. BALDWIN: Do their cards say that
19 they belong to Arizona Soccer?
20 MR. STEINBRECHER: There's a chain,
21 actually, and it says, first organization is their,
22 the state association, leads up to the USYSA, the
23 division which leads to the Federation.
24 MS. BALDWIN: Do you have a copy
25 anywhere?
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1 DR. CONTIGUGLIA: Of a card? I'm sure
2 we can get one shipped to you.
3 MS. MANKAMYER: I've got one at home.
4 MS. BALDWIN: I can't believe that
5 somebody here doesn't have one.
6 MS. MANKAMYER: I will bring it
7 tomorrow morning.
8 Q (By Ms. Kelly) can the USYSA legally
9 change its bylaws without approval of the U.S., USSF?
10 A (By Dr. Contiguglia) Parts.
11 Q What does that mean?
12 A There are parts of the bylaws that
13 might be related to local competitions or local play
14 which have nothing to do with the Federation
15 components, but in general, our bylaws are written to
16 be consistent with the Federation and to comply with
17 the Federation bylaws.
18 I think it's, I think the analogy is
19 like a state versus national, the Federation bylaws
20 always supersede the USYSA bylaws, but there might be
21 things in the USYSA bylaws which are handed down from
22 the Federation, which we impose.
23 For instance, the small-sided games
24 bylaws, we passed a national rule several years ago
25 that every youth player of the teams in the country
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1 should be playing small-sided games. That was, that
2 came down from the Federation coaching staff, and we
3 implemented, but it's not part of the Federation
4 rules, but we implemented that rule.
5 Q So you can only change those portions
6 of your bylaws which --
7 A Don't conflict with the Federation
8 bylaws.
9 Q I hope that -- is it part of what
10 we're doing, can we get a copy of their bylaws?
11 A It's in the rule book.
12 Q Perfect, great.
13 My last question, I think, is, you're
14 incorporated separately, and I thought I read
15 somewhere that the reason that you are incorporated
16 separately in 1983 was because at that time the USSF
17 did not have 501(C)3 status.
18 A Correct.
19 Q Now that they do, are you planning to
20 go back into the fold and eliminate the separate
21 corporation?
22 A To be honest with you, it's not been
23 openly discussed. My personal opinion is that it's
24 moot, and we're disincorporated. It wouldn't make any
25 difference to how we functioned or operated.
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1 MS. BALDWIN: Including the ability to
2 hire and fire its own executive director? The
3 incorporation, and I do understand historically how it
4 happened, because it was not a 501(C)3 not-for-profit
5 organization, so it was a shell corporation in order
6 to have a not-for-profit organization.
7 But if you look at the Amateur Sports
8 Act, the way this is structured with all these
9 separate corporations certainly, it wouldn't appear to
10 me that it would be something you, as the Secretary
11 General of the whole thing, would find an easy system
12 to manage. Surely, it would be more streamlined,
13 wouldn't it, if those divisions were really a part of
14 USSF?
15 DR. CONTIGUGLIA: No.
16 MS. BALDWIN: I would like him to
17 answer that. That's a tough political question.
18 MR. STEINBRECHER: I would like to have
19 separate domiciles -- and I like, I would like to see
20 us not have separate domiciles. That day is coming,
21 we're midway through our strategic vision, and that
22 day will be coming, and it will be much easier to
23 administer.
24 MS. BALDWIN: You will move them under
25 the same roof instead of out there in Texas somewhere.
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1 MR. STEINBRECHER: Literally.
2 DR. CONTIGUGLIA: Can I add a little
3 bit to that?
4 I think the Olympic Committee requires
5 each of its NGBs to be incorporated as 501(C)3s, and
6 yet no one would challenge the fact that the Olympic
7 Committee has governing authority over the NGBs. The
8 issue of incorporation is critical at the state level
9 in that the state associations do activities which
10 bring in money, okay. Bring in money, which are used
11 at the local level.
12 When you have a 501(C)3 corporation,
13 it makes you, it demands that you are accountable to
14 the IRS, and you can do local fund raising, and you
15 can do local programs and collect more local money,
16 and it has nothing to do with what's going on within
17 the Federation because they are local programs. If
18 you take away their corporate status, you are going to
19 then require them to have all of their financial data
20 accountable only to the USSF. That creates problems.
21 MS. BALDWIN: I don't believe we were
22 talking about the NSAs not being incorporated. I come
23 from the sport of swimming --
24 DR. CONTIGUGLIA: I thought you were --
25 MS. BALDWIN: The local swimming
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1 committees are all separately incorporated as 501(C)3
2 organizations; however, they have much more direct
3 reporting responsibilities to the United States
4 Swimming than your national state organizations do, in
5 that registration is done directly to U.S. Swimming,
6 and they must, all of their bylaws must comply. There
7 must be a copy of that, there must be a copy of their
8 1099 on a very, on an annual basis, and their audits,
9 and I would beg to say that I will bet --
10 DR. CONTIGUGLIA: You don't have to
11 bet.
12 MS. BALDWIN: -- that you don't have it
13 all, and certainly that your parent organization
14 doesn't. I think the question that Cynthia was
15 asking, and that I was asking was that, there are so
16 many initials here, the USYSA is separately
17 incorporated as is your amateur division, as is your
18 pro division, and as is, then the parent
19 organization. I think, Cynthia, correct me if I'm
20 wrong, you were questioning the need for youth soccer,
21 the division to be separately incorporated at this
22 time from USSF.
23 DR. CONTIGUGLIA: I would agree that
24 there's no real strong arguing point.
25 MS. KELLY: Thanks.
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1 MS. BALDWIN: Perry.
2 EXAMINATION
3 BY MR. TOLES:
4 Q I know that soccer goes all the way
5 down to five-year olds.
6 MS. BALDWIN: Oh, no, my grandson
7 started playing at 3.
8 MR. TOLES: Well, one and a half.
9 MS. KELLY: Asterisk, Sandy's
10 grandson.
11 Q There's under-6, and under-8. Why are
12 those age divisions thought not under your vertical
13 integration? Are they treated separately for, or are
14 they too young to be considered part of your Olympic
15 Development Program?
16 A (By Mr. Steinbrecher) They're too
17 young to be considered part of the Olympic Development
18 Program.
19 Q Are they nevertheless still an
20 important part of your mission statement?
21 A Yes, clearly. Eventually, one day
22 they will be part of the Olympic Development Program,
23 so, in what we do with them now, in terms of their
24 coaching and preparation, will give us better players
25 or worse players. So, clearly they're part of it, and
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1 clearly, we must pay attention to it.
2 DR. CONTIGUGLIA: May I add to that?
3 MR. TOLES: He answered my question.
4 Q Let me go back to one of the specific
5 functions that national governing body is concerned
6 about, and that is how you handle grievances and stuff
7 like that. Disputes. I'm not understanding that
8 every five-year old up through 16-, 19-year-old is
9 going to have a dispute, will then file a grievance
10 with the president as was pointed out under the
11 Athletes Bill of Rights.
12 I think what I have gathered through
13 all of our testimony here is that that's handled on a
14 local level, handling those grievances; is that
15 correct?
16 A That is correct, and may I add that
17 Mr. Monaco will be able to shed light on that in the
18 morning as he served as the chairman of the appeals
19 committee. But generally, the appeals are heard on a
20 local level first. If they're not satisfied with
21 that, then, it goes up to the divisional level.
22 If they're still not satisfied with
23 that, there's further recourse to the national level
24 appeals. Ultimately, actually, to the floor of the
25 National Council.
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1 Q Okay. If they can't resolve it on the
2 local level, then it will filter all the way up there?
3 A Exactly.
4 Q The local level, are we talking about
5 the National State Associations or even lower than
6 that, the local clubs?
7 A Well...
8 MR. MONACO: The clubs.
9 MS. BALDWIN: It probably starts with
10 the clubs, goes to the local association?
11 A It leads --
12 Q Who establishes, then, the grievance
13 procedures at that point in time? Who is responsible?
14 A It mirrors the procedures from the
15 United States Soccer Federation.
16 MS. BALDWIN: May I ask a question? If
17 you don't have copies of all of their bylaws, how do
18 you know?
19 A It's a good question. We assume.
20 Q What is the procedure for ensuring
21 that all the grievance procedures at all local levels,
22 which I assume are even more than the 55 National
23 State Associations, mere grievance procedures --
24 A Larry, you have served there, can we
25 wait for the testimony for tomorrow, or are we needing
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1 to swear him in now?
2 MR. MONACO: For example --
3 MS. BALDWIN: We'll take that up
4 tomorrow.
5 MR. TOLES: We'll wait until tomorrow.
6 Q Assuming that the grievance procedures
7 are mirrored, then that's how you ensure that proper
8 due process is followed, and that athletes are not
9 suspended before they're given a hearing?
10 A Mm-hm.
11 MR. SATROM: Sandy, if I could
12 interject for just one second, the Chapter 9, Page 175
13 that you mentioned, that doesn't require any hearing
14 if an athlete has a grievance with respect to his
15 right to compete. It leaves the president, quote, "in
16 its sole discretion," unquote, to decide after his
17 investigation, or hers, whether or not he should be
18 referred to the National Board of Directors or just
19 thrown over arbitration or whatever.
20 A I think that was put in after our '93
21 compliance hearing with the USOC, and that it wasn't
22 quick enough, that our procedures weren't quick
23 enough.
24 MR. SATROM: There is no typing
25 mechanism in there whatsoever, there isn't a single
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1 date.
2 MS. BALDWIN: See, and that was my
3 question about very precise dates because I think the
4 USOC itself has learned that it's very necessary to
5 have, to develop very precise dates.
6 MR. TOLES: It was my time.
7 Q Switching, then to team selection,
8 what's the youngest world championships for youth --
9 A 17.
10 Q -- Under 17, and the selection
11 procedures are developed by...
12 A The national coaching staff, national
13 team coaches, and the national coaching staff.
14 Q Okay. Are there athletes on -- is
15 that a committee or is that staff that's doing it?
16 A It's both. It's both. A committee,
17 the committee generally sets the policy; staff
18 executes the policy.
19 Q Are there athletes on those
20 committees?
21 A Yes. Yes, we have, I can't recall
22 exactly who serves on the coaching committee right now
23 Amr Aly, I believe.
24 DR. CONTIGUGLIA: Amr Aly?
25 A I can't recall exactly who serves on
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1 the coaching committee, who are the former athletes.
2 Q How do you push down from the top to
3 the local level, the programs that you want to
4 implement and fund? I mean, does spending flow? I
5 saw a couple of memos where you direct your
6 organization to disseminate information to all the
7 National State Associations?
8 A The small-side game is a classic issue
9 where there were technical aspects to the game that we
10 felt would enhance the development of youth players.
11 That's the 4V4s, that we referred to as small-sided
12 games. The recommendations, initially, came from the
13 ground up, with a number of coaches within our
14 coaching committee, our coaching committee, saying
15 that it's ludicrous for us to play small kids on a
16 field that's 120 yards long, 70 yards wide and have 11
17 kids who all play like this, anyway. So the goal is
18 to have children have more touches on the ball. It's
19 about a scaled development. This came to the national
20 office.
21 The national coaching department in
22 conjunction with the committee, said this is an
23 absolute worthy idea. We should now implement it.
24 Went to the USYSA, and said, let's
25 implement this program across the board. Now, I will
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1 tell you again, that one of the methods I found most
2 effective with managing our Federation is not to
3 mandate. We are a democracy, but it is to convince
4 people of the rightness of the programs, and the
5 rightness of ideas, and this has been widely accepted.
6 Q I can't remember exactly what the
7 question was, but you were, we were asking you what
8 feedback does U.S. Soccer Federation receive from the
9 National State Associations and your local members, to
10 make sure that they're carrying out, and it wasn't
11 reported to the Board of Directors, it wasn't reported
12 to the executive committee, you said they make the
13 report to the National Council?
14 A No, no. In this regard, you are
15 talking about specifically, this, let's continue that
16 analogy with this program, they are in constant
17 contact, the national coaching staff is in constant
18 contact with the people who are executing the programs
19 at the grass-roots level, so it is on an ongoing basis
20 that they're working together. So there's a constant
21 feedback whether it's working, whether it's not
22 working. We're looking at our under-14 program right
23 now, and it is, all the kinks are not worked out of
24 it, so there's a constant evolution to these
25 programs. So it's on an ongoing basis, that the
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1 communications is going.
2 MS. BALDWIN: Does your -- may I just
3 ask one interjection then? Does your coaching
4 committee, who is part of USSF, that particular
5 vertical integration portion of the organization, do
6 they work directly to those coaches at the national
7 state organization, National State Association level
8 or do they work through the USYSA?
9 A All three, and also the coaching
10 committee.
11 MS. BALDWIN: It sounds awfully
12 cumbersome.
13 DR. CONTIGUGLIA: Can I respond a
14 little bit? I'm the chairman of the coaching
15 committee --
16 MS. BALDWIN: For USSF.
17 DR. CONTIGUGLIA: -- and one of the
18 components that we have not mentioned is that every
19 state association has a director of coaching, and many
20 times, it is full-time paid employee, and his
21 selection is done in conjunction with Steve Sampson on
22 our team coach, so you have the two vertical -- Bobby
23 Howe and Steve Sampson, down to the director of
24 coaching of each association. Communication occurs
25 several ways.
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1 One, it's through educational
2 programs, and through the states, all of our state
3 directors of coaching, and all of our national staff
4 had a symposium, annually, here in Colorado Springs
5 where we all discuss what the needs of our programs
6 are and we report what our successes have been
7 regarding our coaching structure and our coaching
8 programs, so there's constant communication on a
9 year-round base.
10 In addition, Hank and his staff go
11 within the states and do coaching programs in
12 conjunction with the local state director of coaching,
13 so that's where your integration occurs.
14 MR. TOLES: One final question. Is
15 there athlete representation on the National Council?
16 MR. STEINBRECHER: Yes.
17 MR. TOLES: 20 percent athlete
18 representation?
19 MR. STEINBRECHER: Yes.
20 MR. TOLES: What's the definition of
21 the athlete that you use?
22 MR. STEINBRECHER: An individual,
23 Melissa, if you can give me the specific terminology,
24 if you can recall?
25 MS. APCEL: Somebody who has served
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1 within the last ten years.
2 MR. STEINBRECHER: Right. We tried to
3 mirror what the definition was of the USOC.
4 MS. BALDWIN: Are they elected then by
5 their local organization?
6 MR. STEINBRECHER: I would say, yeah.
7 MS. BALDWIN: They're elected by the
8 athletes?
9 MR. STEINBRECHER: That's awfully
10 general, Melissa, which athletes?
11 MS. APCEL: The national teams.
12 MR. STEINBRECHER: At the National
13 Council, General Council, not on the executive
14 committee, or the Board of Directors. At the Board of
15 Directors, the athletes elect themselves. We have a
16 pool of those individuals who have played over the
17 past ten years. They elect their representatives to
18 the -- to those committees.
19 At the annual meeting, it's anyone who
20 has participated in the program over the last ten
21 years. I think that's what the language is.
22 MS. KELLY: Where is that?
23 MR. STEINBRECHER: And Melissa -- where
24 is that located?
25 MS. BALDWIN: I really looked in the
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1 rule book for that and couldn't find it, but if you
2 could cite that for me in the morning, I would
3 appreciate it.
4 MS. APCEL: The information I was
5 providing was with respect to the Board of Directors.
6 I misunderstand your question.
7 MS. KELLY: Where is the definition?
8 MS. BALDWIN: But since your highest
9 governing body is your National Council, it also must
10 have 20 percent athletes, and your Executive
11 Committee, and I couldn't find the criteria anywhere
12 for how they're selected.
13 MR. STEINBRECHER: Okay.
14 MS. BALDWIN: So I just would like that
15 as a point of information, because I don't think
16 they're all selected under the same criteria.
17 MS. KELLY: Can I just build on that
18 one thing? On the question of the National State
19 Associations, do you require that they have a 20
20 percent athlete representation as well?
21 MR. STEINBRECHER: I believe that the
22 memorandum, and I will need to hunt out this as well,
23 after our last compliance review, a memo was sent out
24 by Hank desBordes to that effect that they had to have
25 compliance. And I have not reviewed them.
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1 MS. KELLY: Oh, okay, and so again, we
2 had raised some questions about how you monitor the
3 NSAs and their performance, and so you haven't
4 reviewed the NSAs --
5 A I have not reviewed whether or not the
6 National State Associations have 20 percent on all of
7 their boards.
8 MS. BALDWIN: Right, I just have one
9 other question. Your Exhibit A, this wonderful
10 pumpkin-colored chart, under the youth division, the
11 USYSA, with its 55 states, it lists affiliates of
12 state organizations, and Peter had read them to us,
13 Park and Rec, Boys and Girls Clubs, Ys, CYOs, PAL, et
14 cetera; do you have any reasonably exact numbers of
15 the state associations that have those members and if
16 so, which one has which members?
17 MR. STEINBRECHER: Yes, we have a copy
18 we can supply you with.
19 MS. BALDWIN: This would imply that
20 it's all of them.
21 MR. STEINBRECHER: It's not all of
22 them. We have a document that will tell you exactly
23 what association it has.
24 MS. BALDWIN: Okay. Thank you. I
25 would like a copy of that. I have no other questions.
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1 Anyone else?
2 (Panel conferring.)
3 EXAMINATION
4 BY MR. TOLES:
5 Q Back on the Complainant's, Exhibit
6 Number -- no, that's not what I want. Back in
7 Respondent's, the big exhibit book under Tab 9, a page
8 called "Evolution," you said that you were comparing
9 1991 to 1996, and you say, now there's 68 staff
10 members at national federation.
11 Under this administrative support
12 stairstep up to 2010, you have total staff 16.
13 MR. STEINBRECHER: We're referring to
14 coaching, specifically.
15 Q This is only coaching?
16 A That's correct. Back at Soccer House,
17 it's administrative staff, secretaries, it's director
18 of administration, it's marketing people.
19 Q Do you have a staffing chart area of
20 responsibilities that you can provide?
21 A Of course, but I did not bring it here
22 tonight.
23 MS. BALDWIN: How many staff does the
24 A, the youth division have?
25 A Five, I believe.
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1 MS. BALDWIN: And those don't count in
2 your 68?
3 A They're set at five. They do not count
4 in my 68.
5 DR. CONTIGUGLIA: Again, it depends on
6 how you look at it, because we have six staff in
7 Dallas and then state, National State Associations,
8 are all organized, many with paid staff as well.
9 MS. BALDWIN: But those are employees
10 of those 501(C)3 corporations.
11 DR. CONTIGUGLIA: Correct.
12 MS. BALDWIN: Do you have in your 68
13 any staff members from the professional division?
14 MR. STEINBRECHER: We have an
15 individual who is responsible for professional
16 registration. We don't have anyone on staff who is a
17 member of the professional division. We have an, a
18 person also there for oversight to make sure that the
19 leagues are in compliance with the international
20 transfers situations.
21 DR. CONTIGUGLIA: The referees
22 department.
23 MR. STEINBRECHER: The referees as
24 well.
25 MS. BALDWIN: The same with the amateur
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1 division?
2 MR. STEINBRECHER: We schedule all
3 referees for professional matters. All professional
4 referee games are scheduled out of the office in
5 Chicago.
6 MS. BALDWIN: And your amateur
7 division, the senior division, do you have any
8 employees in your office for that?
9 MR. STEINBRECHER: They utilize a
10 number of our employees of which we graciously allow
11 them to use for the benefit of the game, but they are
12 not a financially whole organization.
13 They're strapped for funds all the
14 time, so they do not, they have one person who works
15 for them, one employee.
16 MS. BALDWIN: And is that out of your
17 office?
18 MR. STEINBRECHER: That's out of my
19 office that's in Bergen, New Jersey.
20 EXAMINATION
21 BY MS. KELLY:
22 Q Do the pro leagues, they have their
23 own staffs?
24 MR. STEINBRECHER: Yes, oh, yes.
25 Q So the actual administrative staff is
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1 68 people, plus five, plus National State Associations
2 employees?
3 DR. CONTIGUGLIA: Hundreds.
4 Q Hundreds, plus whoever the pros have
5 hired as well, so those are the administrative people
6 managing USSF?
7 A You can imagine the professionals
8 saying that it's, this amateur organization is running
9 professional sport.
10 Q Why is that?
11 A That's the mandate under our other
12 affiliation, if I have, yeah, we are also required to
13 do that by our IOC.
14 Q The IOC requires you to run the pro
15 athletes?
16 A Absolutely.
17 Q Is that with any other sport, that the
18 IOC requires it of any other sport?
19 A It's the IAF, and some do.
20 MS. BALDWIN: It's not the IOC, it's
21 the IF.
22 A I'm sorry, I misspoke.
23 Q So that's in perpetuity as far as you
24 know, that your organization will have to run the pro
25 leagues?
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1 A No, not run. We're not there to
2 administer, but oversee it and govern it. Set the
3 standards by which they play.
4 MS. BALDWIN: Okay.
5 MR. ALKALAY: I have that. We might as
6 well mark that item as well, if you don't mind. That
7 was the chart that you requested.
8 MR. GREGORY: Can I have a copy?
9 MS. BALDWIN: It's an exhibit.
10 Certainly you may have a copy
11 (Respondent's Exhibit H was marked.)
12 MR. ALKALAY: I have it.
13 MS. BALDWIN: We have no further
14 questions tonight, and thank you very much, and I
15 assume that you may step down. I would assume if you
16 are going to do any cross-examination of him, it will
17 be in the morning.
18 MR. STEINBRECHER: He's done his cross
19 and re-cross.
20 MS. BALDWIN: Of him, I meant of --
21 DR. CONTIGUGLIA: I don't think we will
22 be starting with me in the morning.
23 MS. BALDWIN: No, but you will be on in
24 the morning again.
25 DR. CONTIGUGLIA: Definitely.
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1 MS. BALDWIN: Because you are going to
2 call him back again tomorrow.
3 MR. ALKALAY: Yes.
4 MS. BALDWIN: And at that time, you
5 will do your cross-examination.
6 MR. GREGORY: I would rather, yes, sir.
7 MS. BALDWIN: Yes, sir, thank you. I
8 think it's a good point to kind of break tonight, and
9 thank you all for putting in such a long day, and
10 we'll try to keep things really on track tomorrow, and
11 we'll start at 8:00 a.m.
12 (Recessed at 9:40 p.m.)
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
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25
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1 TUESDAY, MAY 20, 1997
2 (Commencing at 8:00 a.m.)
3 MS. BALDWIN: Everybody is in here who
4 needs to be, I believe. Perry had kept a very good
5 time line, yesterday. He keeps it actually to the
6 second.
7 And so in order to be both fair and
8 not be here forever, the complainant yesterday had
9 three hours and seven minutes to present, and there
10 was an hour and 12 minutes of cross-examination, then,
11 of course some time in redirect and our questions.
12 You had an hour is all, yesterday, to
13 present and the rest of the time was, again, spent in
14 your questions. And some of it was spent in both of
15 you gentlemen arguing, and I would love to not have
16 that happen today.
17 I would also like to remind all of you
18 that you are sitting here with three past presidents
19 of NGBs, certainly of varying sizes and scope, and an
20 athlete who has been involved 12 years in the USOC.
21 So remember that we do understand the very basics of
22 how national governing bodies function.
23 All of these people have served on the
24 membership committee, and I have chaired member
25 services. So we have done more than a cursory study
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1 of the structures of NGBs.
2 I would like to give you two more
3 hours today to present. An hour for
4 cross-examination, another hour for redirect and
5 questions and 15 minutes each for summary, if we can
6 stay with that. If there is some absolutely very
7 valid reason we shouldn't, we will break for lunch,
8 and come back for that, but that should get us out of
9 here between 12:30 and 12:45, where we would be
10 finished.
11 If you can't stand that time line,
12 please tell me why you think you can't.
13 MR. ALKALAY: Go ahead, Fred.
14 MR. GREGORY: I think we can deal with
15 that time line.
16 You mentioned summation. If they're
17 going to be post-trial briefs, the suggestion was
18 raised yesterday, we could probably dispense with
19 summation today, because it would just duplicate
20 what's going to be in the briefs, and give us a little
21 bit more time to look at the evidence that you have.
22 MS. BALDWIN: That would be my
23 preference, because I would rather read it than, you
24 know, in the post --
25 MR. GREGORY: Especially hear it and
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1 then read it again.
2 MS. BALDWIN: Yeah.
3 MR. ALKALAY: Fred and I discussed this
4 just before 8 Okay, and it's completely acceptable to
5 me. I prefer to pursue that, in fact, based upon what
6 you just said, the defense rests.
7 MR. MONACO: Are you going to accept
8 that?
9 MR. GREGORY: We accept.
10 MR. ALKALAY: I just want to -- well,
11 I promise not to argue today, but I think there's one
12 small difference between our presentation and theirs
13 in terms of the time line, which is most of our
14 evidence is really coming in through witnesses and a
15 good deal of what was presented to you yesterday was
16 in large measure lawyer argument, so there is a
17 distinction in terms of timing.
18 It's a lot faster for the lawyer to
19 get up and make an argument about the rules than it is
20 to have a witness testify about it, but I think we can
21 stick to the time line.
22 MR. LEVY: Could I make a suggestion
23 that the witness table today face us, so that we can
24 see the witness? It's real hard to tell what he's
25 saying.
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1 MR. ALKALAY: No, I don't want to move
2 my stuff, so -- let me move.
3 MR. WEST: Let me move this over, and
4 he can face them
5 LARRY MONACO,
6 the witness herein, having been first duly sworn to
7 state the whole truth, testified on his oath as
8 follows:
9 (Respondent's Exhibit I was marked.)
10 EXAMINATION
11 BY MR. ALKALAY:
12 Q Larry, would you just identify
13 yourself to the panel and give a little bit of your
14 background in soccer?
15 A Okay. Professionally, I'm an
16 attorney.
17 MS. BALDWIN: Oh, another one?
18 A Having served in the Judge Advocates
19 General Corps, Senior Counsel for the U.S. Senate, and
20 vice-president of Motion Picture Association as well
21 as being a Deputy Law Revision, retired, retired
22 Deputy Law Revision Counsel of the U.S. House of
23 Representatives, plus teaching at the Georgetown Law
24 Center and the Brooklyn Institution.
25 As my soccer hats, I began becoming
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1 involved again in soccer in 1972, '73 because of my
2 three sons. Involved in a soccer program which is
3 called Soccer on the Hill, which is a small
4 recreational program on Capitol Hill, Washington,
5 D.C., doing about everything imaginable for them. And
6 Soccer on the Hill then became a member of the
7 Virginia Soccer Association, which is an NSA, having
8 jurisdiction over D.C. youth soccer programs for USYSA
9 in D.C., and Virginia, and presently I am secretary of
10 that state association.
11 I'm also, I have a State D license
12 coaching course and have coached a little bit, and I'm
13 a Federation certified referee. Right now, I'm
14 executive vice-president of the Federation, and also
15 acting president of the Federation for professional
16 division matters. I'm immediate past chairman of the
17 Rules Committee of the Federation, and have served on
18 the Federation Appeals Committee. And lastly, but not
19 leastly, as executive vice-president of the
20 Federation, I'm an ex-officio member of the Foundation
21 and also happen to be a member of the grants
22 committee, which is meeting in about four hours in
23 Washington, D.C.
24 What I would like to do --
25 Q Wait, let me introduce it.
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1 A Okay.
2 MR. ALKALAY: First of all, for the
3 members of the panel, we just distributed an exhibit
4 which is really a supplement to Tab 11 of the exhibit
5 book. These are rules in the Soccer Federation rule
6 book which established the accountability of the
7 divisions and NSAs to the United States Soccer
8 Federation.
9 Larry, if you would just begin your
10 presentation on the various rules for the panel.
11 A What I would like to do is emphasize
12 or go through the rule book from an accountability
13 point of view, and make the opening statement that
14 what we're talking about, the Federation rules or
15 parts of this book are Chapters 1, 2, and 3, and then
16 Chapter 9, which is our policy statement.
17 Chapter 4 is the youth division rules
18 which tell how the youth division structures itself,
19 and to the extent functions are delegated to it,
20 activity and programs, how they carry out those
21 delegations.
22 Chapter 5 is the amateur division
23 rules which tells how the amateur division is
24 organized, and how the amateur division, to the extent
25 programs and activities are delegated to them, and if
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1 they have rules, and how they carry out Federation
2 programs and activities.
3 They also have policy tournament
4 manuals, the two divisions also have policy and
5 tournament manuals, different manuals on carrying out
6 different programs, whether they be Federation
7 programs and activities, or just their own division
8 programs and activities.
9 To begin with on Page 1, is that how
10 you have it?
11 Q I think each panel has the rule book.
12 A I was going to go down through the
13 rule book.
14 Q Yeah.
15 A Basically, I would like to start on
16 Page 1, which is Chapter 1, which is the Federation
17 Constitution, and you will see Article 102 lists the
18 purposes, and, in particular, in this case, Clause 3,
19 tells you, Clause 3 happens to be a delegation of
20 authority there, of a program, and in this case, the
21 amateur cup competitions and the youth cup
22 competitions.
23 On that same page, Article 103,
24 actually, I guess it's the next page -- no, yeah, it
25 is the next page, it goes over to Page 2 -- you will
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1 have Article 103, Section 3, tells the authority of
2 the amateur and youth division, or actually, all three
3 divisions that they are the administrative and
4 coordinating bodies for the Federation. That's at
5 Page 2, Section 3 near the top. And then beginning on
6 Page 3 we have a series of definitions. In Rule 2001,
7 we've got Clause 2 explaining the amateur division as
8 being the coordinating body for the NSAs. You have
9 got Clause 8, on Page 3, which states, it defines a
10 division as being an administrative group of NSAs or
11 professional members and listing the three current
12 divisions of the Federation.
13 At the bottom of Page 4, Clause 19,
14 defines National State Associations as being the
15 administrative and coordinating body for the
16 Federation, programs delegated to it by the
17 Federation, and then rule, let's see, it's Clause 32
18 on Page 6, defines youth division as being the
19 administrative and coordinating body for NSAs, and
20 then if I could get you to flip, hold that page and go
21 to Page 12, Section 2014 is a section, I'm sorry, is
22 an entire rule which just generally lays out the
23 authority and restrictions and governance by the
24 Federation of how the amateur and youth divisions are
25 coordinated within the Federation itself.
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1 Now, if I could ask you to flip back
2 to Rule 2011, Section 2B, beginning at the bottom,
3 beginning on Page 7, and beginning with subsections,
4 actually, all of this Section 2, but Subsections B, C,
5 D, E, and if you go over to the next page, F, G and H
6 are all provisions that only apply to NSAs and do not
7 have comparable limitations or provisions for any
8 other members, and in particular, in this case,
9 affiliate, other affiliate and associate members.
10 Those provisions and restrictions
11 apply to only the NSAs, and you do not find comparable
12 provisions for the other categories of membership.
13 On Page 9, if I could refer you there,
14 to Subsection (b) (6), you will see a provision that
15 says, affiliate members will provide documentation of
16 the number of registered players for appropriate
17 purposes such as assigning.
18 So, therefore, the only item of
19 information that affiliate members have to provide are
20 the number of players, soccer players they have, and
21 that's primarily to determine, one, how many votes
22 they get at the AGM; and two, how much, the amount of
23 their dues that they will pay for each year.
24 On the other hand, if you go to Rule
25 2014 on Page 12, if you go to Rule 3016 on Page 60,
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1 you will find that the NSAs have to provide much more
2 information than that. They must provide, on Page 60,
3 Section 6A, they must provide a list including the
4 names, addresses and clubs for every player
5 registered, and the affiliates, other affiliates, and
6 associate members do not have such a requirement.
7 I would say personally, I think the
8 fact that the affiliate members do not have to provide
9 that kind of information puts us in violation of the
10 Amateur Sports Act, and, but, however, our rule says
11 they do not have to provide it.
12 Here I'm trying to point out
13 accountability of the NSAs and what the differences
14 are between the NSAs and the other three types of
15 membership.
16 If you flip back to Page 13, Section
17 (1) (e) at the top of Page 13, and Rule 2016, there is
18 a requirement there of documentation from NSAs, which
19 do not apply. It's an accountability provision that
20 does not apply. It only applies to NSAs. It does not
21 apply to the other types of membership.
22 The other group of rules I would call
23 to your attention are primarily in the Chapter 3000,
24 which are called the playing rules.
25 Primarily, here, I'm talking about
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1 Rules 3012 through 3041. There are a few rules in the
2 3000s that apply to more than NSAs in the divisions,
3 but for the most part, almost all of the rules in
4 Chapter 3 apply only to NSAs, and none of those
5 requirements are applicable.
6 In fact, we're talking about player
7 registration, referee organizational structure, and
8 alleged assaults and abuses on referees only apply to
9 NSA and do not apply to anybody else, the other three
10 types of members.
11 Now, those are the main points I would
12 like to point out. Also on accountability, I would
13 say, in general, NSAs -- and I think the question was
14 asked yesterday on what is the membership category of
15 NSAs. The national, the NSAs are members of both the
16 Federation and either the youth or the amateur
17 division, but in any event, if they happened to be a
18 new NSA apply for membership to the Federation, to
19 apply for membership, they would have to apply to the
20 Federation, and the Federation National Council would
21 have to approve them for membership. They could not
22 become a member of either the Amateur Division or the
23 youth division without the permission of the National
24 Council and the Federation.
25 A number of the accountability items
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1 that Mr. Gregory referred to yesterday was he cited
2 consistently the rules in 4000s.
3 Those are the youth division rules
4 saying how that -- again, I'm going to repeat myself
5 just briefly -- how the youth division governs itself,
6 structures itself, and how, to the extent it has
7 delegated programs and activities, how it's going to
8 carry out those programs and activities, as well as
9 other programs and activities, which it does, which
10 are not mandated or are not carrying out delegated
11 administrative functions, duties, activities, and
12 programs to the Federation. So that you have to look
13 at Chapters 1, 2, and 3, the policy statement, in
14 Chapter 9, or actions of our Federation National
15 Council or actions of our NBOD, or our committees, on
16 how we are carrying out our obligations under the FIFA
17 statutes and regulations under the Amateur Sports Act
18 and under the USOC Constitution.
19 MR. TOLES: Would you state that again
20 please?
21 A Right. The place that you look for
22 the Federation's accountability and whether or not
23 we're carrying out what we are required to do, would
24 be the FIFA statutes and regulations, the Amateur
25 Sports Act, the USOC Constitution, the Federation
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1 Chapters Rule, the Constitution and policies, the
2 Constitution and Rules in Chapters, 1, 2, and 3, in
3 this book Chapter 9, the policy statements of the
4 Federation, and then actions of the Federation
5 National Council and the NBOD and its officers and
6 staff.
7 Q Larry, before you go into the policy,
8 and the 9000 Section, I wanted you to comment on the
9 Federation's powers of removal. I think in your
10 summary you may have omitted that.
11 A You're right. Okay, I probably did.
12 The power of removal is in...
13 Q 2064, 2064, right?
14 A No, it's 2061 or -2. 2061 (3)(c)
15 right, (3)(c). That's the one I was going to come to
16 later. You are talking about power of removal of the
17 officers?
18 Q Right. Were you going to get to that?
19 A (3)(c). That's coming later. That's
20 not the removal of officers.
21 Q Take a look at... 2054, Page 30.
22 A 2054, Pages 30 and 31. That talks in
23 terms of the removal of officers of the Federation,
24 which would include, as it lists, the regional
25 directors of any division of the two divisions.
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1 Q And this provision does not apply to
2 the officer positions of affiliates, other affiliates,
3 or associate members.
4 Q And there are also rules, are there
5 not, Larry, that provide that disciplinary action can
6 be taken against the National State Association if
7 they act in ways --
8 A I was going to get to that, in
9 actually giving --
10 Q All right. You will get to that?
11 A I will get to that.
12 Q But before you go on, have you had any
13 experience with an actual removal?
14 A Okay. The answer is, I have not had
15 any personal experience with the actual removal of the
16 board of an NSA, or a removal of an NSA, but my
17 understanding is that a number of years ago, a board
18 was removed in a case of -- a youth board was removed
19 in a case in Maryland, and I understand that a number
20 of years ago, this Federation actually went in and
21 removed several boards, actually took over control of
22 several state NSAs at the amateur division level, and
23 the authority for that, since we're there, is Section
24 (3)(c), at the bottom of Page 32. And that provision
25 only applies to removal in the case of NSAs,
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1 divisions, and it uses league there, meaning
2 professional league. Okay, and that is an authority
3 that does not exist at the Federation level for
4 affiliates, other affiliates and associate members.
5 Q Why don't you go on, Larry?
6 A Okay. If I could get you to go to,
7 oh, as an introductory comment, most of, or a good
8 portion of the requirements of the US, the USOC
9 Constitution Amateur Sports Act, we carry out through,
10 primarily through our committees and those duties of
11 the committees are listed in Section 2064, Rule 2064,
12 beginning on 36.
13 And then what you, generally speaking
14 have, you have a standing committee or special
15 committee, standing committees being listed in Rule
16 2064 beginning on Page 36. And then in a great number
17 of instances you may have a few more rules. For
18 example in the case of the referee committee, which is
19 established -- where is it -- on Page 40, and then we
20 have a few more rules in the 3000s on how the referee
21 committee is organized, how the national referee
22 program is organized, and in addition, and this is
23 true in a lot of our committees, we then have policy
24 statements, which are contained in Chapter 9 to
25 explain how those programs are carried out.
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1 For example, if you would go to Policy
2 9006, which begins on Page 196 -- and this is a
3 fairly, I guess for a policy statement, sort of
4 lengthy -- it goes through Page 203, which explains at
5 the beginning, the national coaching school program or
6 the national licensing program, which, in effect A, B
7 and C licenses are administered directly and
8 completely by the Federation, and then D, E, and F
9 licenses which are administered and provided through
10 the state associations under guidance from our
11 national coaching staff.
12 And then after that it explains about
13 the state and regional coaches and state regional
14 coaching director appointments, in which you can see
15 how, in this case, for example, on Page 200, the
16 Federation policy provides for appointment by the
17 state president, subject to confirmation, that they're
18 meeting the Federation criteria by subject
19 confirmation meeting, Federation criteria, by the
20 national coaching committee chairman, and that's
21 contained on Page 200.
22 What I'm doing is I don't want to get
23 bogged down in a lot of detail, other than to explain
24 to you, generally speaking, we have a program and a
25 committee that handles that program, and then we have,
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1 in a lot of cases, policies to carry out that program,
2 and then it becomes a practical question of
3 application from the Federation staff, officers, down
4 to the NSAs and/or, could be affiliates and other
5 organizations.
6 There's also a policy, the next policy
7 on 9007 on referees on how the national referee
8 program is carried out -- and I don't have these in
9 order, but if I could get you to go back to policy
10 9005, because Mr. Gregory yesterday said that the only
11 way on Page 181, the only way that a member of AYSO
12 could get approval to hold an international match was
13 to go to an NSA, which is clearly not the case.
14 On Page 181, Section 1, last sentence
15 of the first paragraph: NSAs or matches of NSAs go,
16 obviously, first to the National State Association
17 Board of Presidents, and then it comes up the line
18 through to the Federation staff.
19 MR. GREGORY: I'm not sure where we
20 are.
21 A Page 181, Section 1, last sentence,
22 first full paragraph, first full paragraph under
23 Section 1, on Page 181.
24 The last sentence of that paragraph
25 says, "Other members of the U.S. Soccer Federation
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1 wishing to sponsor international matches are entitled
2 to do so with approval of the U.S. Soccer Federation."
3 So the answer is there, in the case of
4 affiliates, other affiliates, and associate members,
5 they apply directly to the international games
6 committee, and the staff, the international games
7 section staff, and they handle approval, and, in fact,
8 that is the way, for example, Futsol has applied for
9 tournaments, international matches, and that is the
10 way it is handled.
11 This, it does not go through any
12 division. It does not go through a National State
13 Association.
14 Mr. Gregory also cited yesterday on
15 international travel, Rule 4039, Page 97.
16 Rule 4039 is a youth division rule.
17 It's telling you how the youth division is going to
18 handle requests in the youth division for
19 international travel.
20 As Mr. Gregory was implying yesterday,
21 if that rule had gone further and said -- and it also
22 will take into account an approved AYSO request --
23 that would have clearly been illegal, because that
24 would have been an usurpation of the authority by the
25 athletes division.
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1 Under Federation rules, international
2 travel for affiliate members is handled by the
3 Federation and that's found on Page, I think it's 12,
4 Page 13 Section 2D: Affiliate members have exclusive
5 jurisdiction over their programs except when hosting
6 an international competition. And I just told you how
7 the international competition is held, that's policy
8 9005.
9 They apply directly to the Federation
10 staff, and the international games committee, or
11 seeking to travel outside the United States where
12 sanctioning will be obtained from the Federation.
13 It's not obtained, and it cannot be
14 obtained from the youth division or the amateur
15 division; it is obtained directly from the Federation
16 for international travel outside the United States,
17 affiliates, other affiliates and associate members
18 apply directly to the Federation. They are not
19 subject to any control of any NSA or the youth
20 division, nor could they be under the Federation
21 rules.
22 Another matter mentioned by
23 Mr. Gregory yesterday was fees and who sets fees for
24 the youth division, and he cited the youth division
25 rules. Well, of course, the youth division has a rule
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1 saying how it sets its fees between its members and
2 itself, but that has nothing to do with the Federation
3 fees that are imposed on NSAs, affiliate members,
4 other affiliates and associate members. Those are
5 handled by Rule 2013, Page 11, and Policy 9003, Page
6 180 and Rule 3016, Page 60, Section 4A.
7 Those are the places -- just those
8 I've cited -- are where fees are imposed or can be
9 imposed on NSAs and professional leagues. All other
10 fees for other types of memberships are listed in the
11 fee rule on Page 11, beginning with Sections 2, 3 and
12 4, and then Section 5 goes back to professional
13 leagues.
14 So Federation fees imposed on its
15 members are done by Federation rules and policies.
16 Just to mention a few more, and then I will wind up,
17 is the women's programs. Of course we set a specific
18 mandate, I think it's in Article 102, 103, Article 2,
19 Clause 1, on Page 1. Specifically, it talks about
20 promoting soccer and including international soccer
21 and tournaments for men and women's soccer.
22 We also have a women's committee, and
23 obviously Hank mentioned to you yesterday, the number
24 of programs that we are involved in in the women's
25 program, and as I recall, approximately 40, 42 percent
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1 of our members, players are female.
2 Sports medicine, I would just cite to
3 you Section 7 of the coaching committee authority,
4 Pages 38 and 39.
5 On the handicapped -- that comes
6 directly under our general authority of Articles 102.
7 In addition, we have cerebral palsy and Special
8 Olympics as members of the Federation, and I guess
9 it's too late, but Hank could have -- tell you much
10 better than I can, the assistance we have provided
11 those two organizations over the years. At far as
12 technical matters, they are handled by, administered
13 by programs listed in Sections 7 and 11, on Pages 38
14 and 39.
15 One other, I guess, area to get into
16 is -- I think that's probably enough place to stop.
17 Q I'm going to quickly change the
18 subject on you, Larry, and talk a little bit about the
19 foundation.
20 (Respondent's Exhibit J was marked.)
21 Q The exhibit that I'm distributing to
22 the panel should be really read in conjunction with
23 Tabs 6, 7, and 8 of the exhibit book. And I think you
24 said in your introduction, Larry, that you do sit on
25 the foundation board?
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1 A I do.
2 Q And you are there by reason of your
3 position as being executive vice-president of the U.S.
4 Soccer Federation; is that correct?
5 A That's correct.
6 Q And all of the Soccer Federation
7 members are -- officers are members of the board?
8 A Yeah, there are seven ex-officio
9 members of the board plus nine elected directors.
10 Q And they are elected by?
11 A The National Council of the
12 Federation.
13 Q Now, I just want to draw the panel's
14 attention, if you would, Larry, I don't think they're
15 numbered pages so bear with me -- six pages in --
16 A That's the page with the chart?
17 Q Yes, it's the chart that discusses or
18 sets forth the schedule of the fiscal year 1996
19 grants. Do you see that?
20 A Yes, I do.
21 Q Did you participate in the approval of
22 the grants that are set forth in this document?
23 A Or the disapproval in certain cases,
24 but, yes.
25 Q If you take a look at the next page...
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1 MR. GREGORY: Excuse me, I would like
2 to object to the grant information. We haven't
3 addressed the grants in our opening. We addressed...
4 MS. BALDWIN: Yes.
5 MR. MONACO: Yes, you did.
6 MR. GREGORY: Maybe I'm asleep.
7 Mr. Monaco is correcting me. I thought we addressed
8 the basic governance structure of the foundation, and
9 whether there is reasonable direct representation on
10 the foundation, and the fact that the foundation has
11 control over the assets, but I don't think we put into
12 issue here the granting of -- the actual results of
13 granting.
14 A Mr. Gregory, you made the statement --
15 Q Larry, no, no.
16 MR. ROWAN: Just a moment.
17 MS. BALDWIN: I do think that the panel
18 would like to hear some of this, very, very briefly,
19 just for informational purposes.
20 Q Right, I think you will recall that
21 the complaint alleges that somehow the foundation is
22 the primary source of funding for the Federation. And
23 I think that's an allegation in the complaint, and it
24 was raised in the presentation that Fred made
25 yesterday. And I think, if I remember correctly, Mr.
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1 Haimes made a statement to the effect as well on his
2 direct testimony.
3 Just again, briefly, because I think
4 the media packet that you have before you, as well as
5 the exhibits, speak for themselves, and we can argue
6 to what extent the foundation has any governance
7 responsibilities within the meaning of the USOC
8 Constitution in our post-hearing briefs.
9 But just for purposes of giving some
10 sense of order of magnitude of the total amount of
11 grants that were made in 1996, how many went to the
12 United States Soccer Federation?
13 A Two of the 36.
14 Q For a total of how much?
15 A 125,000.
16 Q And what was the budget of the United
17 States Soccer Federation in the year that these grants
18 were given?
19 A Our budget this year, '96, '97, is
20 approximately 17 million.
21 Q And did AYSO get a grant in that year?
22 A As I recall, AYSO did, yes. They got
23 one grant.
24 MR. ALKALAY: Thank you.
25 MR. TOLES: What was the $17 million
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1 figure?
2 MR. MONACO: The $17 million figure is
3 the income and expenses, total income and expenses of
4 the Federation only, for '96, '97.
5 MR. ALKALAY: We just wanted to counter
6 the argument that this was the primary source of
7 Soccer Federation funding.
8 I have nothing further.
9 MR. GREGORY: Briefly.
10 EXAMINATION
11 BY MR. GREGORY:
12 Q Mr. Monaco, does the Federation have a
13 line of credit with the foundation?
14 A Does the -- yes, it does.
15 Q And what is the size of that line of
16 credit?
17 A I believe it's one and a half million
18 dollars.
19 Q And is that used for operating
20 expenses by the Federation?
21 A At times, it is.
22 Q I was confused going through the rules
23 by a couple of things, and I would like to have your
24 help.
25 Does Section 4 describe at all how the
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1 National State Associations go about performing the
2 duties delegated to them, to coordinate all activities
3 between the youth players and their leagues, and the
4 affiliate players and AYSO, and other affiliates and
5 non-affiliated organizations?
6 A I'm assuming that the youth division
7 rules do contain such provisions.
8 Q You are assuming that the youth
9 division rules -- those are in 4?
10 A In Chapter 4.
11 Q So Chapter 4 applies to how the
12 National State Associations coordinate their, perform
13 their duty to coordinate between the affiliates and
14 the National State Association leagues?
15 A If they have such a provision, yes.
16 Q I'm sorry, I didn't understand the
17 last answer.
18 A If they have such a provision, yes.
19 Q Are you questioning whether the
20 National State Associations have the duty to
21 coordinate activities?
22 A No.
23 Q Because that's clear, isn't it, under
24 2016?
25 A Yes.
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1 Q At Pages 12 to 13 -- you kind of
2 skipped past that -- but there it says, the National
3 State Association shall coordinate activities and
4 programs with affiliate, non-affiliate, other
5 affiliate, and associate members within each state.
6 A Mm-hm.
7 Q And we're going to find in Chapter 4
8 how they do that, you think? Let me withdraw that
9 question. If we're going to find it anywhere, we're
10 going to find it in Chapter 4?
11 A No.
12 Q Where else will we find it?
13 A You will find it in Chapter 5,
14 Chapters 2, 3, Federation policies, committee
15 operations, NBOD actions, executive committee actions,
16 officer actions.
17 Now, if we look at Chapter 4, Page 75,
18 Subpart (8) of Section, Rule 411 (1)(b), I guess it
19 is, (b)(8)?
20 A (B) Yes.
21 Q The State Soccer Forum?
22 A Mm-hm.
23 Q Are you aware of whether any such
24 forum has occurred?
25 A I have no knowledge of this since this
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1 is only, to my knowledge, a youth imposed program, and
2 it is not a delegation nor requirement of the
3 Federation so I would have no knowledge of that.
4 Q So, when 2011, sorry, 2016 -- I get
5 turned around in this book a lot -- when 2016 says
6 that the National State Associations shall coordinate
7 activities and programs with affiliate, non-affiliate,
8 and other affiliate and associate members within each
9 state, the attempt to comply with that delegation in
10 Subpart 8 is not a delegated function?
11 A It could have been a unilateral action
12 by the youth division as a means of carrying out that
13 function. It was certainly not a required function of
14 the Federation or a required mandate of the
15 Federation.
16 Q I'm also wondering about 2016 (b) on
17 Page 12, as well as F on Page 13. You have, the
18 National State Associations have the authority, duty,
19 and privilege to organize and conduct the state and
20 local level Federation cups, competitions, training
21 program, and national team development selection
22 programs. And then you have an (F), to coordinate
23 activities and programs with affiliates,
24 non-affiliates, et cetera, but then over in the
25 Constitution and Article 103, it says that in
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1 Section 3 -- which by the way, Section 3 was added in
2 1995, right --
3 A I think that is correct.
4 Q Okay.
5 A I think you are correct on that. I
6 don't remember, but --
7 Q In 1995 the Constitution of USSF was
8 amended to state that the divisions have the full
9 authority of the Federation to organize and manage
10 Federation programs, competitions and activities. Yet
11 2016 says the National State Associations have the
12 authority, duty and privilege to organize and conduct
13 Federation cups, competitions.
14 Who is doing it? Is it the divisions
15 or is it the National State Associations?
16 A Both.
17 Q Both are doing it. And both running
18 the same program?
19 A You did not mention what I mentioned
20 in my statement, Article 102, Clause 3, which is, in
21 effect, it goes, Federation division, NSAs.
22 Q I'm not with you now, I'm sorry.
23 MS. BALDWIN: Repeat that, please.
24 A In my opening statement, or my
25 statement, I also cited, I primarily cited 102,
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1 Clause 3. I did not go on and cite the other two that
2 you are citing just because I thought it was
3 repetitious, but the answer is, Clause 3 says, The
4 purpose of the Federation are to assist and coordinate
5 the management of the amateur cup competitions and the
6 national youth cup competitions, which is half or
7 two-thirds of what are being talked about in those
8 other two provisions you are citing.
9 Q Okay. So, these things are only
10 talking about, or two-thirds of it is the national
11 amateur cup competition, and the national youth cup
12 competition that the affiliates are excluded from?
13 MR. ALKALAY: I object to that
14 question.
15 A I will answer yes to the --
16 MR. ALKALAY: Go ahead.
17 A Yes, to the first half, and no to the
18 second half.
19 Q The affiliates are not excluded from
20 the national youth cup competition?
21 A To my knowledge, they are not.
22 Q How do they get eligible?
23 A They can apply through the states.
24 Q All right. So through the state
25 associations?
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1 A Right.
2 Q And that's found in Chapter 4?
3 A Yes, for the youth.
4 Q But Chapter 4, Chapter 4 -- I think,
5 we're going in circles here -- I thought Chapter 4
6 only applied to the administration of the youth
7 division.
8 A Article 102, Clause 3, and those other
9 two provisions you cited are delegations of authority
10 by the Federation to NSAs for certain programs. To
11 the extent those programs have been delegated, that
12 authorizes the amateur division and the youth division
13 to prescribe methods for carrying out those programs.
14 They could carry out those programs by
15 rules, in Chapters 4 or 5, by policy statements
16 adopted by them at their own National Council or their
17 own NBOD, or by manuals.
18 Q All right. Well, we'll deal with that
19 in our brief, I guess.
20 Mr. Monaco, yesterday, I think while
21 Dr. Contiguglia and Hank Steinbrecher were testifying,
22 you answered a question about a contract, an agreement
23 between FIFA and USSF regarding USSF's rights and
24 duties regarding the professional measures; do you
25 remember that?
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1 A I really do not.
2 Q Is there an agreement between FIFA and
3 USSF concerning the professional players?
4 A There are FIFA statutes and
5 regulations and policies that mandate how we carry
6 out --
7 MR. ALKALAY: I'm not sure I know what
8 relevance we have to anything in this proceeding.
9 A I'm not sure, either.
10 MR. GREGORY: I thought I heard it.
11 And I was just going to ask if he knows that there is
12 such an agreement, could it be provided to you.
13 MS. BALDWIN: But I don't think there
14 was any such agreement of anything, the way I
15 understood it, of anything outside the normal FIFA
16 rules and regulations for all of the, of their members
17 worldwide.
18 MR. GREGORY: I was only going to get
19 to the point that if there is an agreement that's
20 between USSF and FIFA, or between USSF and IAF, I
21 think, was the other one mentioned yesterday.
22 MR. ALKALAY: IAF is Track and Field.
23 MS. BALDWIN: That's Track and Field's
24 international Federation.
25 MR. GREGORY: If there are agreements
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1 there and you are concerned about, and the panel is
2 concerned about where their rights and duties are
3 spelled out, I was just going to ask if a copy of
4 those agreements, if they exist, be furnished to the
5 panel.
6 MR. ALKALAY: There are international
7 Federation statutes, as there are for every national
8 governing body.
9 MS. BALDWIN: Which we have. We have
10 the international...
11 MR. ALKALAY: You have that, actually,
12 the IF statutes...
13 MS. BALDWIN: But I think he's saying,
14 does USSF have any kind of separate agreement with the
15 professional...
16 MS. KELLY: In answer to my question,
17 Hank said that it was required by the IF and the IOC,
18 and then we corrected that, it wasn't the IOC, but it
19 was the IF requires the pro leagues to be under your
20 aegis.
21 MR. STEINBRECHER: There is only one
22 instance, may I speak on the issue?
23 MS. BALDWIN: Yes, you may.
24 MR. STEINBRECHER: There is only one
25 instance that I know that there's a separate agreement
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1 with regard to our IF and the professional leagues.
2 The IF gives the ruling on the rules
3 of the game. They create the rules of the game. Our
4 pro leagues start in March. Their rules take effect
5 in July. We have petitioned them to start enforcing
6 their rules at the start of our professional season.
7 That is the only side agreement that we have.
8 MS. BALDWIN: And I don't think that
9 agreement has any relevance.
10 MR. STEINBRECHER: That's the only
11 outside agreement we have.
12 MS. BALDWIN: Thank you, Hank.
13 MR. GREGORY: The question is though,
14 and maybe you know the answer already, and I will
15 stop, but was I hearing yesterday that there's an
16 agreement that requires USSF to have the pro league?
17 MS. BALDWIN: Yes, but it's not an
18 agreement. What that is, as I understood it, and
19 somebody correct me if I'm wrong, is that's the
20 statute of FIFA on how it governs worldwide
21 professional soccer.
22 MR. GREGORY: And nothing more.
23 MS. BALDWIN: And nothing more.
24 MR. GREGORY: Thank you. I have no
25 further questions.
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1 MR. ALKALAY: Just one -- I have
2 nothing further. You are excused, Larry.
3 MS. BALDWIN: Thank you, Larry.
4 I'm sorry. Do you have any
5 questions? The panel has a few questions, excuse me.
6 We'll start with Perry this time. I started with Tom
7 last night.
8 EXAMINATION
9 BY MR. TOLES:
10 Q Are all the rules in this rule book
11 proposed and adopted by the National Council?
12 A Of the Federation, no. Only Chapters
13 1, 2 and 3.
14 Q So Chapter 4, those rules are adopted
15 and mandated by...
16 A The National Council of USYSA.
17 Chapter 5 are the rules and bylaws adopted by the
18 National Council of the Amateur Division.
19 Q Okay. Where -- what rule can you point
20 me to that shows where you have directed, or you are
21 accepting the obligation to minimize conflicts in
22 scheduling through coordinating competition schedules
23 and stuff? Who does that?
24 A At the international, for
25 international matches and foreign matches, the
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1 Federation.
2 Other than that, there is none.
3 Q So nobody is like on a state level?
4 A No, sir.
5 Q How about disseminating information to
6 athletes? How do you keep athletes informed of
7 policies that affect them, for example, notifying them
8 of team selection procedures? Is there a rule that
9 states this division or this state association or the --
10 or athletes will be kept informed?
11 A To my recollection, there is no rule.
12 It is done administratively under the national teams
13 general manager.
14 MR. ALKALAY: Mr. Toles, if you look at
15 Tab 21, because I think you are asking the questions
16 that are asked by the membership committee in
17 connection with its continuous compliance review, and
18 those questions are addressed in Tab 21, which is the
19 compliance and review report that was submitted to the
20 USOC.
21 MS. KELLY: There is no answer in that
22 tab to this question.
23 MR. ALKALAY: No, no, right, I'm saying
24 that the response, to the extent that those --
25 MS. KELLY: I have the same one.
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1 MR. ALKALAY: -- to the extent that
2 those responsibilities are carried forward is outlined
3 in the compliance review report.
4 MS. BALDWIN: What she's saying,
5 there's not an answer to that question.
6 MR. ALKALAY: Well, the answer is from
7 the witness.
8 MR. TOLES: That's all the questions I
9 have.
10 EXAMINATION
11 BY MS. KELLY:
12 Q How do you find out, what is your
13 structure for finding out what the NSAs are doing,
14 whether or not you approve of what they're doing, they
15 have to change what they're doing as a practical,
16 administrative matter?
17 A As a practical administrative matter,
18 if the NSAs, the function of reviewing, let's say,
19 rules and bylaws, financial reports and annual state
20 reports have primarily been carried out through the
21 two divisions.
22 Q Okay. So the U.S. Youth Soccer does
23 the NSAs essentially?
24 A Essentially. And to some extent the
25 Federation rules committee does have oversight and
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1 does review NSA bylaws, but it's not on a regularized
2 basis right now.
3 Q The amateur group has a separate
4 organization, it's incorporated separately. Where are
5 they based?
6 A North Bergen, New Jersey.
7 Q And how do you decide whether or not
8 your amateur division, again, structurally and from an
9 oversight point of view, is doing a good job? Or
10 what's their mission to double the number of players
11 in X number of years?
12 A First is at the rule level; of course,
13 all of our divisions are required to submit rules
14 changes to the Federation which then go to the
15 Federation rules committee.
16 On an operational program basis, it is
17 done either through our committees, for example, or
18 through our officers or our staff.
19 For example, I attend all of the
20 national meetings of the amateur and youth divisions,
21 okay, which is, in effect, twice a year.
22 The amateur division, for example,
23 also supports the sponsors at the U.S. Soccer
24 Festival, which I have had a great deal of
25 participation in. That's the replacement for the old
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1 Olympic Festival for soccer. The U.S. Open Cup, which
2 I happen to chair the committee which involves our
3 amateur division, I chair that, and I oversee that.
4 So what I'm saying is, it's done
5 generally speaking, through an administrative matter
6 through our staff and through our officers.
7 Q Where does it say in your organic
8 doctrine that the Board of Directors is governed
9 without regard to sex, race, color, religion or
10 national creed?
11 A I do not think it says that.
12 Q It's been mentioned here that 41, 2,
13 3, percent of soccer players are women. How many of
14 the current officers are women?
15 A You mean officers? There are only
16 three officers. The answer is none.
17 Q Executive Committee?
18 A Executive Committee, two, two.
19 Q Two of?
20 A Two of nine.
21 Q Is it n a percentage basis, anywhere
22 at all near 40 percent?
23 A No, and nor is it only NBOD.
24 Q Do you have any reactions about that?
25 A I think there's three. The answer is
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1 we are trying. We would hope more and more, but the
2 answer is we've gone to none to three in I think two
3 years, and we probably will end up with one or two
4 more come the elections in July. I say that off the
5 record, but...
6 Q I just wanted to know what comment you
7 had.
8 Is there any encouragement to the NSAs
9 to encourage female -- I'm assuming that most of
10 your NSA heads were, the youth soccer NSA heads are
11 male?
12 A That's not correct.
13 Q Well, correct me.
14 A That is not correct.
15 At the youth division, at the NSA's
16 youth division and amateur level, even surprising at
17 the amateur level, we have now had regional female
18 directors for the first time, and we have also had a
19 few female state presidents.
20 At the youth level, for example, I
21 have been on the AYSO board since 1984 and that's 13
22 years; 11 of those years, it's been a female
23 president.
24 And that's true of a lot of our state
25 organizations, especially group level.
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1 Q My final question is, why do you think
2 that this is a problem getting the 41 missing bylaws
3 and organic documents from the NSAs?
4 A I think it's just a question of
5 oversight, including myself. I'm state secretary. My
6 responsibility is to send in four copies to the
7 Federation, and four copies to the youth division, and
8 I just, I did it finally, but I just forgot to do it.
9 I don't think it's a question of
10 intention. I think it's just a question of neglect,
11 oversight, and then it becomes a question of better
12 control.
13 MR. ALKALAY: We have another witness
14 that will be discussing that process.
15 EXAMINATION
16 BY MR. SATROM:
17 Q It's my understanding from your
18 testimony this morning that if the group, for example,
19 of 18-year-olds, soccer team of 18-year olds, wanted
20 to go to a tournament in another state or another
21 country, that permission has to come from the NSAs?
22 A I should -- no. If it is a member
23 team of an NSA, they must get permission from the
24 NSA. If it is a member of an affiliate, other
25 affiliate or associate member then for international
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1 travel they don't need permission at all to travel
2 within the United States.
3 Q They do under Rule 4039, if you want
4 to look at that. That's what I'm addressing.
5 A It's a youth division rule. It only
6 applies to the youth division NSAs. You are, I assume
7 you are asking me what about an AYSO team.
8 Q No, I didn't ask about an AYSO team.
9 A Oh. I'm looking at the
10 decision-making is what is in my mind.
11 Q Okay. And what level do those
12 decisions, are they arrived at?
13 A Okay. Let's take --
14 Q And Rule 4039 says that if some team
15 wants to travel out of this country or play in another
16 state, they have to get the permission from the NSAs?
17 A Correct.
18 Q And where I'm going is that the top
19 level of authority for that decision, and secondly,
20 what mechanism, if any, do you have, what procedure do
21 you have to ensure uniformity among all these
22 different NSAs?
23 Is that something the USSF is dealing
24 with, or does each NSA, or their own initiative handle
25 it?
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1 A First of all, we've got to be clear if
2 you are talking about a team that's a member of an
3 NSA.
4 Q That's what we're talking about.
5 A Okay. A team that is a member of an
6 NSA applies to its state secretary for permission to
7 travel outside of its state.
8 If it's within the United States, then
9 it goes from the NSA, and an information copy is sent
10 to the USYSA office, because interstate travel in the
11 United States for NSAs is solely an obligation and a
12 requirement of the youth division rules. It has
13 nothing to do with the Federation requirement. Okay.
14 Now, if that same team wanted to go
15 outside the United States, we have a FIFA statute that
16 requires that the Federation give notice, for example,
17 if a team wanted to go to Canada, a youth team,
18 whether it be a NSA youth team or an AYSO youth team,
19 if it wants to go to Canada, we are required by FIFA
20 statutes to notify Canada in advance, that that team
21 is coming to Canada; so, therefore, in the case of a
22 state NSA team, it would go from the state office to
23 the youth office, to the Federation office, and then
24 we would okay it, get the approvals and then notify
25 Canada.
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1 Q Okay. I'm a youth player. And I am
2 in Florida and I want to play in Georgia, or I want to
3 play in Wisconsin, my team. And say, we apply to our
4 NSA. --
5 A Okay.
6 Q -- we're turned down, but the very
7 same -- what standards, what standards do you set at
8 the USSF level for those NSAs? Any? Or is each NSA
9 setting standards on their own in approving or denying
10 those?
11 A That's why I have to make the
13 international travel.
14 Travel within the United States for an
15 NSA team is solely a youth committee...
16 MS. BALDWIN: To further his question,
17 my question would have been very similar. So that if
18 they are turned down in Georgia, as an example, does
19 Georgia, and Florida and California and New Jersey,
20 for the NSA, have the same set of criteria?
21 A Yes, because if you look at the very
22 next rule, there is a travel and tournament manual
23 requirement. The USYSA puts out a travel and
24 tournament manual which goes to every state, which has
25 uniform terms, criteria, it even gives you the form,
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1 and all you have to do is fill in the blanks and sign
2 it with the appropriate fee.
3 If that were not followed, then they
4 could appeal to the national office, in fact, the
5 youth national office, and, in fact, the travel and
6 tournament manual right now for the youth division is
7 undergoing revision but the answer is, yes, there are
8 uniform standards and that is done in the tournament
9 manual.
10 Q (By Mr. Satrom) I only have one more
11 question.
12 I don't know if we're going to gain
13 much more by pursuing this, but if my team was turned
14 down, and if we wanted to file a grievance because we
15 have a tournament coming up, and it's immediate -- you
16 talked yesterday about Chapter 9 -- tell me how
17 Chapter 9 would work. What would I do? Where would I
18 file? Walk me through the steps in order to protect
19 my rights as a player to compete.
20 A You are talking about a youth player?
21 Q Yeah.
22 A The youth player could either
23 file -- I have never heard it done, but I guess the
24 youth player could do it under Policy 9001, which
25 would then, which, as I understand it was put in here,
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1 we adopted it because that was part of our 1993
2 compliance review, and we were told we met that
3 requirement, that review, but they could do that.
4 But more than likely, what would
5 happen is that they would follow the appeals procedure
6 within the state.
7 In my state, for example, if I denied
8 an application to travel, which is going to come from
9 the coach or the manager, not the player --
10 Q The NSA has already turned me down.
11 A -- then, it goes to the Region 1
12 Appeals Committee.
13 Q Okay. Keep going, what if you get --
14 A -- then it goes to the Youth Appeals
15 Committee and then the Federation Appeals Committee,
16 30 days maximum for each of those rules.
17 Q What I'm confused is, on your
18 Chapter 9 that talks about me appealing directly to
19 the president, and the president, in his or her sole
20 discretion, decides whether or not I deserve a
21 hearing.
22 A That's correct. I'm saying normally.
23 That's not what would have happened at a state level.
24 Because an application to travel, for example, is
25 filed by the team. That's signed off by the coach.
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1 If he thought he were aggrieved, he would appeal to
2 the state board. Then, they would follow the appeals
3 process, which is set out in Chapter 4, for example,
4 or 5.
5 Normally, that's what would happen.
6 That's not saying they couldn't try to use the policy
7 9001, but at the youth level, I don't think it's ever
8 been tried.
9 Q We've got this tournament that's
10 imminent now, and I want to utilize Chapter 9. I file
11 right to the president?
12 A Of the Federation.
13 Q And how much time does the president
14 have to decide?
15 A It just says he must act promptly or
16 immediately, or whatever it says.
17 Q Does it even say that?
18 A I think so.
19 Q I know there are no time frames set
20 out.
21 A There are no specific days, no. To
22 resolve the complaint without delay. Shall promptly
23 cause an investigation to be made and resolve the
24 complaint without delay.
25 Q The part that concerns me, I guess, is
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1 it says, depending on the nature of the complaint, and
2 the time available, the president in his or her sole
3 discretion... National Board of Directors of the
4 Federation in which case it will decide the nature and
5 extent of any action to be taken and then it also
6 gives the president very little discussion about a
7 hearing, or any right to a hearing or any time
8 limitation as to when that must --
9 A All I can tell you is we have held as
10 a Federation appeals committee, as has the youth and
11 amateur decision appeals committees, have consistently
12 held that you have a right to the hearing.
13 And the expedition on this one would
14 probably be, if it were referred, the president would
15 probably refer it to an executive committee on a
16 conference call.
17 MS. BALDWIN: Perry, you have one more
18 question.
19 EXAMINATION
20 BY MR. TOLES:
21 Q Rule 4013, as you read that, would you
22 describe that as a procedure where an individual could
23 be suspended without a hearing?
24 A As a matter of fact, at the state
25 level we just went through this last week, the answer
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1 is, yes, this was language which was given us by the
2 USOC, and the answer is, yes, the answer is, it's a
3 temporary provision.
4 There is a temporary provision
5 immediately for suspension, okay, in which case, the
6 only thing that that person can do is while the
7 litigation is pending, seek an appeal to the state
8 board on the question of whether it's detrimental to
9 the welfare of youth players. That's the last
10 sentence on Page 98, and then there is a complete
11 hearing upon entering of final judgment in the
12 litigation.
13 Q Not speaking specifically to this
14 rule, but your grievance and appeal procedures are set
15 out for your amateur athletes in Chapter 5, the
16 grievance and appeals procedures are set out for your
17 youth athletes in Chapter 4; hypothetically, if there
18 was some provision that we felt ran afoul of due
19 process requirements, how can the Federation ensure
20 that either of those divisions would amend their
21 bylaws to correct that?
22 A I understand. And in fact a couple of
23 years ago the Federation was bothered with a number of
24 levels of appeals at the youth and amateur division,
25 and we adopted a rule that said in effect,
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1 notwithstanding the rules of the amateur and youth
2 division, this is the way it will be, and then they,
3 the next year changed their rules to comply with the
4 Federation. So the answer is, there's two ways: We
5 can either direct them to do it, and make the rule
6 changes or we just adopt their own rule overriding
7 their rules, and we have done that.
8 Q My two colleagues were asking me where
9 does it say that in the rule book?
10 A What?
11 MS. BALDWIN: What you just said?
12 A About where we override?
13 MS. BALDWIN: That you could direct
14 them to do so.
15 A Okay. Well, first of all, their own
16 rules say that, that they're a subsidiary, but in
17 addition to that, if you go to Pages 6 and 7, the
18 duties, any National State Association or professional
19 member, when they submit their original, when they
20 apply, originally apply for membership, they have
21 agreed that no future changes to such charter, bylaws,
22 rules and regulations will be enacted without the
23 entire written consent of the rules committee,
24 approval of the rules committee.
25 MS. BALDWIN: Okay. I think we're all,
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1 I think the difficulty with the way your rule book is
2 structured, if I may be so bold, is that because it's
3 in the separate sections that are all approved by
4 separate, incorporated divisions, it's really unclear
5 which one supersedes the other, so, please forgive our
6 --
7 A No, I understand.
8 MS. BALDWIN: Council has asked if he
9 may ask a question, and I have granted him
10 permission.
11 EXAMINATION
12 BY MR. ROWAN:
13 Q Mr. Monaco, it seems that the bulk of
14 your testimony was intended to show that you have got
15 adequate controls over the NSAs, and probably the
16 youth division within Sections 1000, 2000, 3000, your
17 FIFA rules, the Amateur Sports Act, sorry, Debbie, and
18 Chapter 9 of your procedures to make lawful, the
19 delegation of authority to the National State
20 Associations; is that a fair characterization?
21 A As far as looking for something
22 written, that's a fair characterization. It's not a
23 fair characterization if you are saying that's the
24 only way.
25 Q Was that a fair characterization of
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1 what you were saying, and why you were referring to
2 the various elements?
3 A Not really, okay. What I was trying
4 to do is -- and I'm here with a lawyer rule-making
5 panel is -- I guess is the way I will look at it, but
6 it also said it included actions of the NBOD, the
7 staff, and the officers, okay.
8 So, what I'm saying is the thrust of
9 my testimony is what's on paper, okay, and then to
10 point out how the system operates. There are other
11 people who will testify how it is carried out, in
12 fact, because those practical applications of the
13 rules, the statute, the rules, the policies and the
14 laws, are then carried out practically on a daily
15 basis, which also include oversight and governance.
16 Q I guess what I'm getting at is that
17 you made a statement that was interesting, relating to
18 the main charge in the complaint. Your outline of the
19 strict controls over the NSAs, by the NSSF through all
20 of these rules drew a comment from you that this
21 probably puts you in violation of the Amateur Sports
22 Act.
23 Are you referring to Paragraph 9 of
24 Section 4C relating to reasonable direct
25 representation of organizations in the sport?
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1 A No, that was given in the context of
2 affiliate members not having to provide names and
3 addresses of their registered players to the
4 Federation, and I take the position, as has our
5 National Council, that under the Amateur Sports Act,
6 all of our members, whether or not they are an
7 affiliate member or an NSA, are required to give us
8 the names and addresses of all of their players and
9 administrators in order to let us carry out our
10 functions.
11 And we have a rule that specifically
12 says the affiliate members do not have to provide that
13 information.
14 Q Just one follow-up. I think everybody
15 is having a little trouble distinguishing exactly what
16 NSAs are versus other members, and the Amateur Sports
17 Act says that you must provide reasonable direct
18 representation for amateur sports organizations which
19 conduct, on a level of proficiency, competitions, et
20 cetera.
21 Are the NSAs among those organizations
22 as far as membership on your board is concerned?
23 MR. ALKALAY: Ron, you are asking --
24 I know that Larry has a legal background, but you are
25 asking a legal question. That's not a fact issue.
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1 MR. ROWAN: I think it's a fact
2 question. Are they organizations that fit that
3 definition?
4 MR. ALKALAY: They're not outside
5 amateur sports organization.
6 MR. ROWAN: I didn't use the word
7 outside. Are they any amateur sports organizations
8 which conduct on a level of proficiency programs at
9 the national level and so forth, or are they something
10 else?
11 MR. ALKALAY: They conduct state
12 programs.
13 A I don't think I understand the
14 significance, but the answer is clearly they are
15 members of the Federation who are carrying out our
16 programs, and they are carrying them out through two
17 divisions.
18 MR. ALKALAY: They are the Federation,
19 Ron. I mean, that's why...
20 MR. ROWAN: I figured that was the
21 answer, but I wanted him, to hear him say it.
22 MR. ALKALAY: I do think it has legal
23 implications. It's an interpretative question. They
24 are the Federation. It's like saying is the United
25 States Soccer Federation an amateur sports
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1 organization that provides competition at a level of
2 proficiency, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera? That
3 distinction is very important to make in this
4 proceeding.
5 You cannot compare on the same basis,
6 the National State Association and an amateur sports
7 organization that seeks admission under the Amateur
8 Sports Act. An NSA is not the NCAA; an NSA is not the
9 NAIA. It's none of those things, it's not the AAU.
10 It is the Federation.
11 MS. BALDWIN: Including the
12 professional arm?
13 MR. ALKALAY: The professional arm is a
14 separate division.
15 MS. BALDWIN: Then it is not the
16 organization. It is part of the organization.
17 MR. ALKALAY: Well, yes. It is,
18 exactly.
19 It is integrated into the whole
20 organization, but you can't carve it out and let it
21 stand alone in comparison to another amateur sports
22 organization that conducts a program that wants to
23 come in and doesn't want to be subjected to the
24 control and authority of the Federation. The analogy
25 really is -- and Mike Harrigan will appreciate this --
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1 is the Section 206 of the Amateur Sports Act, that's
2 what AYSO is. It has exclusive control and
3 jurisdiction over its own program.
4 MS. BALDWIN: And I don't think I agree
5 with that analogy, but, I think the difficulty becomes
6 that whether USSF is truly a Federation, it sounds
7 like, in practice, like a confederation, more than a
8 Federation, and there is a distinction there.
9 A better analogy to me, in some ways
10 would appear to be the National High School
11 Federation, who says on one hand it does have some
12 control over its state organizations, but every time
13 they try to exercise that control, they have trouble
14 carrying out their duties, because they really are,
15 they're pretty independent, and it appeared to me that
16 your NSAs are pretty independent.
17 Any other questions from the panel?
18 Thank you very much.
19 MR. SATROM: I have one last question.
20 EXAMINATION
21 BY MR. SATROM:
22 Q On Chapter 4, you said that it was
23 adopted by a youth organization.
24 A Correct.
25 Q Was it ever ratified or approved by
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1 the Board of Directors or the National Council of the
2 USSF?
3 A No.
4 MR. ALKALAY: We are having a little
5 discussion about how much time the panel thinks I have
6 left.
7 MS. BALDWIN: He's calculating right
8 now. He did calculate the time we asked questions.
9 MR. TOLES: You have an hour and a
10 half.
11 MR. ALKALAY: Oh, I don't think I'm
12 going to need it.
13 DR. CONTIGUGLIA: I think I'm up.
14 MR. ALKALAY: You were sworn in
15 yesterday, so I will assume that you are still sworn.
16 I don't remember if you gave your background, did he?
17 Why don't you repeat it. He did?
18 MS. BALDWIN: Yes, he did.
19 DR. ROBERT CONTIGUGLIA,
20 the witness herein, having been previously sworn to
21 state the whole truth, testified on his oath as
22 follows:
23 EXAMINATION
24 BY MR. ALKALAY:
25 Q All right.
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1 Just very briefly identify what your
2 current and sort of immediate past roles of soccer
3 have been, just to give the panel a reminder of who
4 you are?
5 A I have risen through the Soccer
6 hierarchy from a club official president to a state
7 association president in Colorado, the state that's
8 hosting you here today. I have been president of the
9 United States, excuse me, chairman of the United
10 States Youth Soccer Association since 1990, and I am
11 currently -- and that position also creates the
12 position of vice-president of the United States Soccer
13 Federation -- and I'm currently past chairman of the
14 United States Youth Soccer Association, and I'm
15 chairman of the National Coaching Committee of the
16 United States Soccer Federation. I am also a member
17 of the U.S. Olympic Committee, Coaching Committee, for
18 the next quadrennium. I also chair a committee to
19 organize women's professional soccer in the United
20 States. I'm also a founding member of the USSF
21 Foundation, but I'm not currently -- I'm on their
22 executive committee at this point in time.
23 MR. ALKALAY: Okay. You made a
24 statement, Mrs. Baldwin, about the familiarity that
25 the panel members have with NGBs and the like, and I
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1 don't know if that was a signal to skip over the
2 membership structure chart, which you all have before
3 you and which is in evidence and which has been
4 discussed. Do I take it that you prefer that I not
5 have this witness --
6 MS. BALDWIN: Certainly, he may address
7 some of the particular issues in the structure of
8 USSF, because they are not all cookie cutter.
9 Q Okay. Why don't you go through the
10 membership structure that is represented by the
11 membership structure, Exhibit A?
12 A If you take the salmon-colored
13 sheet --
14 MS. BALDWIN: I call it pumpkin; you
15 call it salmon --
16 Q That was Sandy.
17 A -- I think it's clear from the
18 beginning (inaudible) that it was the international
19 governing body of the United States Soccer Federation,
20 and as we discussed this morning, the United States
21 Soccer Federation is an organization with three
22 divisions. Each of these divisions are the United
23 States Soccer Federation as a whole and not
24 separately.
25 In addition, you have organizations,
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1 and each of these divisions are under the governance
2 of the United States Soccer Federation and coordinate
3 and administer the programs of the United States
4 Soccer Federation as outlined by Larry this morning,
5 through the rules. And I will go into a little bit
6 later as to really how the youth division works and
7 deals with the National State Association, because I
8 think there might be some confusion there.
9 And then affiliated to the whole body
10 of the United States Soccer Federation are the
11 affiliates, and you have your affiliate members such
12 as AYSO, SAY, and Futsol that are independent
13 organizations who conduct their own programs. They
14 conduct their programs outside of the United States
15 Soccer Federation. For instance, AYSO has its own
16 independent coaching and licensing program. They have
17 their own independent referee licensing program.
18 Other organizations that would like to
19 get into the Federation that we are currently
20 negotiating with, such as NCAA, and the high schools
21 would fall into that same category, and they also have
22 their own independent coaching, referee and
23 competitions program. In addition AYSO has its own
24 national championship.
25 The other affiliates are organizations
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1 that are not considered national in scope, and those
2 are the AAU, the cerebral palsy. Then you have
3 associate members, and that classification are
4 organizations that do not conduct programs in soccer.
5 They do not conduct competitions, and these are such
6 as the Hall of Fame, the High School Activities
7 Associations, NISOA, the National Soccer Coaches
8 Association, et cetera.
9 So your Federation is really the
10 youth, amateur and professional divisions, and you
11 have to look at it collectively and historically,
12 that's how the Federation has evolved.
13 Now, within the divisions you have
14 your 55 National State Associations within the Youth
15 Division, and I think, as was mentioned yesterday, you
16 have 53 state associations within the amateur
17 division. I will not allude to the amateur division,
18 since I'm obviously more familiar with the youth
19 division.
20 I think it's important that people in
21 this room understand history, and the evolution of
22 what is going on with soccer in this country. My
23 friend Hank Steinbrecher has a saying that we are
24 building a jet plane while we're still in the air.
25 And before 1970, youth soccer was
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1 basically not on the map in this country. It was just
2 a germinal stage. Organizations such as AYSO started
3 in the late '60s; organizations such as U.S. Youth
4 Soccer started in the '70s. Why did they start in the
5 '70s? They started in the '70s as part of the
6 status, excuse me, the state associations within the
7 United States Soccer Federation.
8 Why did they choose not to be an
9 independent youth organization, and an opportunity to
10 join AYSO and be independent at the time? They wanted
11 to work within the Federation and organize youth
12 programs within the Federation. They also noticed or
13 recognized that the needs of youth are clearly
14 distinct from the needs of adults in sports
15 organizations.
16 There are other issues when you are
17 dealing with 4-, 5-, and 6-year-old players. So you
18 need a separate group committed to the needs of youth
19 players, committed to their development, but
20 development in a healthy manner.
21 So the youth organization was formed
22 to meet the mission of the United States Soccer
23 Federation by organizing the game, but organizing the
24 game for kids.
25 As a matter of fact, the motto of the
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1 U.S. Youth Soccer Association is the game for kids.
2 We are a sports organization first, fulfilling our NGB
3 responsibilities as part, as the integral part of the
4 NGB, to train and develop players, but we also
5 recognize that you don't train and develop youth
6 players the same way as you develop adult players, so
7 you have the youth division that deals specifically
8 with the needs of kids in a sports environment.
9 The NSAs have always been part of the
10 Federation. The Federation is the NSAs. The only
11 confusing point here is the divisions, and they were
12 formed for the reasons I just told you, that there's a
13 need to deal with the youth differently than you deal
14 with the professionals or than you deal with amateurs.
15 The way, the programs that the Youth
16 Soccer Division has been given the responsibility to
17 control, coordinate and administer, are the coaching
18 programs, which I think we've alluded to this morning,
19 the referee program, the National Team Development
20 Program or the Olympic Development Program.
21 We administer cups and competitions
22 for clubs within our membership, our members. These
23 competitions are approximately 1100 tournaments, of
24 which the National Cups are only two or three. We
25 participate in the appeal system of the Federation.
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1 We participate in the sports medicine/nutrition
2 programs of the Federation. We deal with programs
3 such as risk management for youth, the area of issues
4 of child abuse, we deal with.
5 We organize the program with the
6 Special Olympics for disabled athletes, and won the
7 Jack Kelly Honorable Mention Award from the U.S.
8 Olympic Committee for that program, and we do
9 inner-city, so we have a very, very broad-based
10 mission, but our mission is programs, not governance,
11 and we administer these programs through the state
12 association.
13 One of the confusing things I think
14 I'm hearing is, well, how do the states do things
15 versus the division? They're integrated.
16 Most of our competitions go from a
17 state level to a regional, national level, and they're
18 integrated in a pyramidal structure. Let's take the
19 National Cup competition, for instance. Clubs compete
20 within states. The states make rules for these
21 competitions in compliance with the national rules set
22 up by the whole, the body of the whole, which are all
23 the NSAs within the division. Then they follow these
24 competitions to a regional competition, to national
25 competitions. These are competitions within the youth
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1 division.
2 Same thing goes with coaching. We
3 have the same pyramidal structure. We have the state
4 director of coaching who interacts with the Federation
5 coaches, and you have policy on coaching that goes
6 from the Steve Sampson to the Bobby Howe, down to the
7 state directors of coaching. The states are
8 responsible for teaching coaches at the entry levels,
9 the grass-roots levels. That's where the D, E and F
10 licenses come in. They integrate with the A, B and C
11 licenses that are administrated by the full-time
12 national coaching staff of the federation.
13 Same thing with refereeing. Each
14 state has a referee administrator who is responsible
15 and accountable to the Referee Committee of the United
16 States Soccer Federation.
17 So you have this integrated structure,
18 you can't separate it out, because the states are the
19 Federation and would operate in this integrated
20 matter. Why do we do this? Because it's the best way
21 to manage a program with 2.7 million people. That's
22 over 300,000 teams.
23 Now one of the things we've been
24 trying to do to make this system work better is to
25 professionalize the National State Associations. I
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1 would say as shortly as six years ago, the majority of
2 National State Associations were managed by
3 volunteers.
4 State finances were run out of a
5 shoebox in someone's garage, and I'm sure you, as
6 people involved in NGBs, know this because you have
7 had the same experiences. We within the Federation,
8 and the Youth Division have made a commitment to
9 professionalize the state associations to where in
10 1990 there were maybe 10 state associations that had
11 paid staff and state officers; now, there are 49 state
12 associations, or 50, I think now, that have paid staff
13 and paid office, to do the things that volunteers have
14 been doing for the last 25 years.
15 We have professionalized these states,
16 and you ask the question, why don't you have all these
17 rules and bylaws? The answer is, you have got
18 volunteers out there doing all these things. You
19 don't have paid professional staff to go out and do
20 the copying, to write these things. Now we are
21 professionalizing so we can do those things, we can
22 delegate, so we can manage these organizations as a
23 true, integral part of the Federation and of the
24 organization.
25 So I will stop here and have you ask
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1 me some more questions, but I'm trying to give you a
2 picture that this is an integrated structure. These
3 are not separate organizations, each doing their own
4 thing, and all the rules of the divisions are voted on
5 by the states, and the states also elect all the
6 officers of the Federation to participate in that as
7 well. So, please go ahead.
8 Q Could you let the panel know briefly
9 on how the administration of these Federation programs
10 are evaluated by the U.S. Soccer Federation? I think
11 we had some questions from the panel asking about how
12 does someone know how you're doing, and I would like
13 you to address that point.
14 A Well, again let's take coaching, for
15 example. We look at the number of coaches that are
16 being turned out and are being trained, and our office
17 in Chicago keeps the records of how many coaches
18 participate in coaching schools, and how many take
19 courses, how many licenses we give out, and I can tell
20 you that the numbers are going up like this.
21 So although we don't have a rule that
22 says we have to do this, but it's very clear, we know
23 we're doing a great job in coaching. And obviously,
24 success on the field is another way of evaluating how
25 we do, because that's what we're all about.
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1 We're about competition. As Hank
2 mentioned yesterday, our youth teams have qualified
3 for every World Cup, period. We've qualified for
4 every World Cup. Our women are the best in the
5 world. So, we see clearly by the outcome on the field
6 how well we're doing.
7 On the other -- that's one way of
8 evaluating. The other way we evaluate is on-the-job
9 presence. I attend, Virgil Lewis attends, Hank
10 Steinbrecher attends, we attend all of these
11 competitions. We're there. We're in direct contact
12 with our state associations and we're working closely
13 with them.
14 We have education programs. One of
15 the big things that we have every year is our U.S.
16 Youth Soccer Workshop. The workshop had an attendance
17 of 2,000 youth soccer people all from the USYSA, this
18 year in Salt Lake City. In that workshop, we have an
19 educational program that has four tracks. Track 1 is
20 coaching education, but we exchange ideas from the
21 states to the national. We exchange ideas on how
22 we're doing in coaching. We also communicate to these
23 states the direction of the national coaching
24 program.
25 We have a referee track, where we do
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1 exactly the same thing for referees. We have an
2 administrator's track where we take the
3 administrators, the professional administrators from
4 our state associations, and we give them courses on
5 risk management. We give them courses on how to, on
6 non-profit status and accountability to IRS. We have
7 attorneys like Melissa Apcel come in and educate them
8 on what to do in case of a lawsuit.
9 And finally we have a track on health
10 and nutrition and sports medicine, where we educate
11 our members on sports medicine. And at that workshop,
12 is where we have the exchange of ideas, so youth
13 soccer is a dynamic organization. It's not a rule
14 book, it's a dynamic organization of hundreds and
15 thousands of individuals at the state level
16 interacting with each other, state to state and up and
17 down the organization of the Federation.
18 We have tremendous communication. We
19 just instituted an internet site for every state
20 association through the USYSA and the Federation.
21 We can communicate rule changes now
22 almost instantaneously. We can communicate messages
23 from the national office almost instantaneously.
24 We're putting in these communication mechanisms,
25 obviously so we recognize there's a need to
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1 communicate better, but we're putting these things
2 into place, so this is an integrated situation.
3 Q Okay. I would like you to address,
4 for a moment, the issue of the cup competitions and
5 championships for one moment.
6 How many AYSO teams do you think would
7 actually qualify for cup competitions and
8 championships?
9 A I'm not --
10 MR. GREGORY: Objection. Lacks
11 foundation.
12 MR. ALKALAY: You threw him, Fred.
13 A May I answer the question?
14 MS. BALDWIN: No, I will sustain the
15 objection unless you really have some absolute, some
16 real concrete figures you can give us, and it's not
17 just your opinion of how many could --
18 A No, the concrete figure is that 80 to
19 85 percent of AYSO players are under 10 years old.
20 Cup competitions starts at 12, so the answer would be
21 very few.
22 Q Now there was some questions raised at
23 some point during the proceeding about the 50 cents
24 per player rule. Could you address the issue as to
25 why the 50 cent per player rule for affiliate members
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1 was eliminated?
2 A Yeah, the 1989 rule changes created
3 some dilemmas. And it also crippled us as an
4 organization regarding opening ourselves up and being
5 more inclusive. The dilemma that it created, it took
6 an organization like AYSO, which is an independent
7 organization that does its own thing, and we made them
8 pay 50 cents a player membership fee.
9 Number 1, this created sort of a
10 hybrid type of member, and it wasn't either totally
11 out or totally in.
12 The other point was it was unfair. I
13 can show you numbers of letters from Burton Haimes,
14 and the AYSO hierarchy saying that they're being
15 treated unfairly, because they're paying all this
16 money to the Federation, and they're getting nothing
17 in return. Well, the reality is they were not getting
18 very much in return, so we removed that.
19 The other issue, and probably the
20 other reason why we removed the 50 cent per player was
21 it was creating exclusionary rules for other national
22 affiliates. We had ongoing dialogues with the YMCA.
23 Mike Harrigan, who has been working with us for six
24 years, has had ongoing dialogues with the High School
25 Activity Association and with the NCAA; and they all
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1 said, we're not going to pay 50 cents a player to be
2 an affiliate. That's nonsense.
3 And so we felt we had to make a pure
4 organizational fee, and also so we could open up
5 ourselves to allow these other organizations to come
6 in. So the reason was to clearly define what an
7 affiliate is, to remove that hybrid and to open
8 ourselves up to other associations to join. As a
9 matter of fact, YMCA as a national organization, is
10 now a member of USYSA.
11 Q There's been some discussion during
12 these proceedings about the Olympic Development
13 Program, and the suggestion made by Mr. Gregory that,
14 and I think by the way, only by Mr. Gregory, that the
15 Olympic Development Program of the Federation was
16 exclusionary; that somehow or another, it was designed
17 to keep out AYSO players and AYSO teams. Would you
18 like to comment on that?
19 A I can comment on that, and I'm sure
20 Virgil Lewis can comment on it even greater since he
21 was chairman of the ODP program, and I can comment on
22 it, since I was a regional administrator of the ODP
23 program. The ODP program, this is something that we
24 felt very, very strongly and have -- and I can't say
25 how strongly we felt -- that was open to anyone who is
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1 an American citizen. We have publicized this. We
2 have sent memos out. We have advertised this in the
3 newspaper, and we have documentation to show that,
4 that the program is open.
5 Now, again the AYSO program is mainly
6 a program that is recreational based, participation
7 oriented and not competitively oriented as they
8 state.
9 In addition, as I said, 85 percent of
10 their players are under 10 or under 12 years old.
11 The ODP program is for older aged
12 players and more competitive players.
13 When we heard that the AYSO was --
14 also when we've had communication with them in the
15 past, they've always said we're not interested in that
16 program and we may be doing our own program for
17 intelligent athletes, but we're really not
18 interested.
19 Recently, they have expressed more of
20 an interest in the program, and as a result, we've
21 communicated with their national office. We've
22 communicated with the SAY national office. We have
23 given them all the literature, and we've directed our
24 state associations to inform them as to the open
25 tryouts, and that any citizen is, can participate. We
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1 also, as Hank mentioned yesterday, AYSO is one group,
2 but we really feel strongly about the Hispanic
3 population. These are kids that are playing in
4 independent leagues and we're trying to get them
5 involved as well. And this is where our initiative to
6 have the Under-14 program to hire Latino coaches has
7 come in.
8 The women are the same thing. We have
9 women coaches going out there trying to identify
10 female players, so I take great umbrage to someone who
11 tells me that our Olympic Development Program is
12 exclusive. It's totally untrue.
13 Q Let me just -- would you give this
14 to the panel.
15 (Respondent's Exhibit K was marked.)
16 MR. TOLES: Why you are handing that
17 out, do you have a copy of Exhibit G for us, that was
18 the October '95 memo to the Olympic Development?
19 A I remember the document. Here.
20 Q Bob, can you tell us what this is, and
21 can you identify the person to whom it was sent to and
22 who it came from?
23 A Yeah, this is a memo dated September
24 9, 1996, and this was an outcome of the discussion
25 with the SAY organization and with AYSO that they were
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1 somehow excluded from the ODPs. A memo was sent, and
2 we said, please request the information, and that memo
3 was sent to our office from a Mike Morrow, who I
4 believe is the staff of the AYSO, requesting Olympic
5 Development Program information.
6 We sent him the complete packet that
7 has gone out, and I think yesterday, you received, of
8 all the contacts, and I think yesterday you received
9 the memo that went out to all the state associations
10 that that they must announce publicly and communicate
11 with their local AYSO organization. And Burton Haimes
12 has agreed that the AYSO group would make inquiries,
13 because there's no way with a purely recreational
14 group of players, who were mostly very, very young
15 that we can really identify who was interested, and
16 who was not. So part of the onus is for them to
17 communicate with us what players they want to get into
18 the system.
19 Q And it's a fact, isn't it, that even
20 in the 1991 guidelines that were mentioned at some
21 point during the presentation of the Claimants' case
22 that any AYSO interested player would indeed utilize
23 the USYSA Olympic Development Program?
24 A Yeah, this thing has been open since
25 1989, 1990, and we disseminate information, we publish
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1 the bylaws, but for some reason or another, the AYSO
2 board says they don't know anything about it, and I
3 find that very disconcerting.
4 MR. ALKALAY: By the way, that
5 reference, just a quick housekeeping matter is
6 contained in the 1995 Annual General Meeting minutes,
7 which were -- it's that green bound volume that was
8 distributed to all the panel -- I believe, yeah, Fred,
9 you have a copy of it.
10 MR. GREGORY: What's the reference
11 number?
12 MR. ALKALAY: The guidelines. It's
13 actually, I think the page that that appears is on the
14 next, on the very last page within the green bound
15 volume. They're hard to make references because
16 they're not paginated, but I wanted to be sure that
17 that was in the hands of the panel and part of our
18 exhibits.
19 MR. GREGORY: I still don't understand
20 what this is.
21 MR. ALKALAY: These guidelines, there's
22 been testimony about this already, Fred. These
23 guidelines were actually distributed.
24 A Every state association in the United
25 States.
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1 I might also say that in my six years
2 as President of U.S. Youth Soccer, and in being
3 intimately involved in the Olympic Development
4 Program, there has never been a complaint from the
5 AYSO naming a specific player who has been denied
6 access to the program.
7 Q Two last things, quickly.
8 There is only one national team
9 selection program, correct?
10 A Correct.
11 Q And can you explain why this decision
12 was reached to have one national team selection
13 program?
14 A It's common sense. It's absolutely
15 critical that your best players play against each
16 other in team sport. You need to have one integrated
17 program to develop your players for the highest level
18 of international competition. The '89 agreement gave
19 affiliated organizations the ability to run their own
20 independent national team program. We took that out
21 of the '95 bylaws. Why did we take it out? Because
22 it's not good for the game.
23 Again, when we open up our
24 organizations, organizations like the NCAA, the high
25 schools, the SAY organization, the YMCAs, that rule
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1 which we took out would have entitled every one of
2 them to have their own independent Olympic Development
3 Program. And I think any of you who know about the
4 origins of the Sports Act would know that the purpose
5 of the Sports Act was to push national team
6 development into one organization, not to allow five
7 other organizations or six organizations run parallel
8 programs. That rule would have created chaos in our
9 organization, and it would have been harmful to the
10 development of the sport.
11 Q How many times has the executive
12 committee met since 1994?
13 A Since '94?
14 Q Yeah.
15 A I don't know, maybe a few conference
16 calls, but that's about all.
17 MR. ALKALAY: I have nothing further.
18 Thank you.
19 MS. BALDWIN: Mr. Gregory.
20 MR. GREGORY: Thank you.
21 EXAMINATION
22 BY MR. GREGORY:
23 Q You said AYSO has a national
24 championship?
25 A Yes.
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1 Q Have you attended it?
2 A I have been invited to it, but I have
3 not attended it.
4 Q You have been invited to a national
5 champion --
6 A Their national festival, which Mr.
7 Haimes calls the national championships, yes.
8 Q National games or national
9 championships?
10 A He calls it national championships.
11 Q Does AYSO call it a national
12 championship?
13 A They call it their national games, but
14 they call it a national event, yes.
15 Q A national event. The entry to which
16 is by lottery, right?
17 A I really don't know the rules.
18 Q They were in your exhibits.
19 The national coaches attend the ODP
20 programs, the ODP tryouts?
21 A Which ones? Which ones are you
22 talking about?
23 Q Your national coaches?
24 A Yeah, but which tryouts are you
25 talking about?
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1 Q The state tryouts.
2 A No, not, in general. They, usually,
3 it's the state director of coaching; occasionally, a
4 national team coach or a member of a staff.
5 Now, when you are saying national
6 coach, what do you mean? Do you mean Steve Sampson,
7 or do you mean a member of the national coaching
8 staff?
9 Q The same -- let's take a member of the
10 national coaching staff.
11 A Sometimes they do; sometimes they
12 don't. In general, it's under the supervision of the
13 state director of coaching, who is oftentimes a member
14 of the national coaching staff.
15 Q Now, how would they find out where to
16 go and when to be there?
17 A The state organization advertises
18 statewide that the tryouts, communicates it to the
19 clubs and to the teams in the area, and it's announced
20 publicly.
21 Q And this memo to Mike Morrow, did you
22 include with it the places and times where players
23 should appear?
24 A Of course not. These are the
25 individuals responsible for the program. The time and
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1 places change all the time, because it's an annual
2 ongoing program, and so these are the contacts that
3 you guys need to make to find out about the
4 appropriate times and places.
5 Q So call each of the 55 people to find
6 out where the kids should go?
7 A I think AYSO has representatives, at
8 least you say you have representatives in every state
9 of the United States, and so it would be appropriate
10 for your representatives to make those phone calls if
11 they're interested, and the children can read the
12 paper.
13 In addition, many AYSO players who
14 play on this level also play in USYSA programs. They
15 play in clubs.
16 Q So they will get that information
17 through their clubs?
18 A There are numerous ways they can get
19 information.
20 Q We will deal with that on rebuttal.
21 How do non-AYSO and non-NSA registered
22 players know about your ODP?
23 A There are a number of ways.
24 MR. ALKALAY: That has been asked and
25 answered, Mrs. Baldwin.
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1 MS. BALDWIN: I think we have --
2 MR. ALKALAY: We've talked about
3 advertisements and everything.
4 Q Nothing more just what you said?
5 A We have an infrastructure of coaches,
6 particularly high school coaches, club coaches, and
7 they're out there looking at players as well, so we
8 have, I guarantee you, there is not a player who is
9 missed.
10 Q Okay. Now, I'm looking at your
11 pumpkin-colored page or salmon --
12 A Salmon.
13 Q -- you like salmon?
14 A I like salmon.
15 Q I like pumpkin. The chairman likes
16 pumpkin. I like pumpkin.
17 Now, you don't have a direct line from
18 USSF to the 55 states, why is that? You have them
19 each going through the division as though the 55
20 states aren't members of the USSF?
21 A Well, as I said earlier, all three
22 divisions are the USSF, so they are members of the
23 USSF.
24 Q But the 55 states are members of the
25 USSF, right, directly?
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1 A Yes, they are.
2 Q And the divisions are the
3 administrative arms for these 55 states, right?
4 A Correct.
5 Q And they also belong to the divisions?
6 A Yes.
7 Q So the USSF is really a membership of
8 55 states and then affiliates, right?
9 A The USSF is the youth division, the
10 amateur division, and the professional division, and
11 the affiliates are affiliated to that.
12 Q Let's -- what confuses me -- I look
13 here in your rule 2011, and I find who the
14 organizational members of the USSF are, and it doesn't
15 mention the divisions. It mentions in Section 2, the
16 National State Associations and the professional
17 members.
18 A I'm sorry?
19 Q And Section 3, the affiliate members,
20 and Section 4, the other affiliate members, and
21 Section 5, the associate members.
22 MR. ALKALAY: Where are you, Fred?
23 A Excuse me, tell me where you are,
24 Fred.
25 Q Rule 2011, Pages 6 to 10.
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1 A Now, what are you saying?
2 Q Well, it doesn't mention in 2011, the
3 divisions as being members of USSF. It says the state
4 associations and professional members are members. It
5 says the affiliate members are members. The other
6 affiliate members are members. The associate members
7 are members, but there's nothing here about the
8 divisions. They're not members of the USSF, are they?
9 A Well, I think, again, I am not Larry
10 Monaco. I hate rules. And I hate, and I'm just not a
11 rules person, but my understanding would be that on
12 Page 1 under the Constitution, it clearly defines that
13 the Federation is made up of the divisions.
14 Q You are the one that decided to talk
15 about the pumpkin page, so I was, I thought you were
16 the one who was going to tell us how this pumpkin page
17 missed showing that actually the youth division and
18 the amateur division belong over here on the side of
19 the administrators, and the 55 states are the direct
20 members as well as the affiliates, the other
21 affiliates and the associates?
22 A That's your interpretation. I don't
23 agree with you.
24 Q Who is the largest member of USSF?
25 A The direct members are the state
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1 associations of the USSF, and so the largest member,
2 per se, would probably be which state, Illinois?
3 MR. MONACO: Cal North.
4 A Cal North with 165,000 players.
5 Q So those are the only direct members
6 of USSF?
7 A Fred, I really don't want to get
8 involved in a rules debate with you. I don't --
9 Q This is the structure.
10 A I'm not the rules person.
11 Q I beg your pardon. This is a
12 structure debate, and you testified about structure,
13 and my question to you is who is the largest member of
14 USSF, and you think that it's Cal North?
15 A Yes.
16 Q But AYSO is a member of USSF?
17 A It's an affiliate of USSF.
18 Q That's different than member?
19 A It's a different kind of member.
20 Q But maybe I have made the point here,
21 but it is a member, right?
22 A Yes, it is, but it's a different kind
23 of member.
24 Q Where does it say that affiliate
25 members is a different kind of member in that it's not
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1 a direct member?
2 A It's a different kind of member
3 because it's an independent organization that runs its
4 own programs independently. It runs its own referee
5 program, it runs its own coaching program, it runs its
6 own competitions, and it chooses not to be subjugated
7 to the authority of the Federation.
8 Q But you would agree, wouldn't you,
9 that so far as members of USSF are concerned, AYSO,
10 with its 600, approximately, approximately 600,000
11 members is the largest member?
12 A It's the largest affiliate member.
13 Q Now, I was trying to understand what
14 you were trying to say about the philosophy of the,
15 that justified the creation of USYSA, that it was
16 important to train kids how to play soccer, but it was
17 important to remember that these are kids, and the
18 challenges of teaching kids are different than the
19 challenges of teaching adult amateurs?
20 A True.
21 Q Are you saying though that for USYSA,
22 despite that, it's winning first and kids second?
23 A No, not at all, I disagree with you,
24 but striving --
25 Q I was hoping you would.
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1 A -- but striving to win is important,
2 and winning is an evil.
3 Q Fine. But kids are first, aren't
4 they?
5 A Yeah, of course, any youth sports
6 organization has to have --
7 Q You have answered my question.
8 A I will explain it to you. Any youth
9 organization --
10 MS. BALDWIN: You don't have to explain
11 to him more than he asked you.
12 A Okay.
13 MR. GREGORY: I have no further
14 questions. Thank you.
15 MS. BALDWIN: Okay. Peter.
16 EXAMINATION
17 BY MR. ALKALAY:
18 Q You heard Hank Steinbrecher testify
19 about how it was certainly a goal and objective of the
20 U.S. Soccer Federation to create a pipeline from the
21 grass roots up to the top of the pyramid, and in that
22 connection, to instill as far down in that pyramid as
23 you can get the philosophies that create and generate
24 winning elite World Cup National Soccer teams; isn't
25 that correct?
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1 A Correct.
2 Q So that indeed when you said kids are
3 first, soccer is also first, isn't it?
4 A Of course. As I said --
5 Q And it isn't kids first using just
6 soccer as a vehicle?
7 A Of course not. We are responsible to
8 develop the sport and to develop players, but you need
9 to do it in a healthy environment for kids. It means
10 that kids need to have fun in the sport, but they also
11 need to learn the game, and they also need to play at
12 different levels of competition because the needs of
13 kids are different.
14 Q And in that connection, it is also
15 part of the philosophy of the Federation that the
16 coaches should be professional coaches, shouldn't
17 they?
18 A Absolutely. We feel very, very
19 strongly that if you are going to develop players,
20 even at the entry level, one of our goals is to
21 elevate the level of play of the average player in the
22 United States, and that's a huge challenge, because
23 the average coach in the United States is a parent
24 coach, and as I talked about professionalization of
25 the state associations earlier, one of the things
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1 we're doing is trying to get every state in the United
2 States up to full-time paid director of coaching,
3 working with the parent coaches and develop these
4 coaches, at that level, and then these paid directors
5 of coaching integrate with the national staff.
6 MR. ALKALAY: I have nothing further.
7 MR. GREGORY: Just a point.
8 EXAMINATION
9 BY MR. GREGORY:
10 Q You are the director of coaching?
11 A No, I'm chairman of the coaching
12 committee.
13 Q Chairman of the coaching committee.
14 A Mm-hm.
15 Q Now, you just said that the state
16 associations believe that coaches should be
17 professional?
18 A Yeah.
19 Q And professional in the sense that --
20 A It's a full-time job.
21 Q -- and professional in the sense that
22 they have been trained --
23 A Mm-hm.
24 Q -- how to deal with kids and how to
25 teach soccer, right?
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1 A Yeah, mm-hm.
2 Q And how to instill kids to achieve
3 greatness in soccer?
4 A Yeah.
5 Q Now, AYSO also has a coaching program?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And then it has various degrees,
8 various levels of licensing, correct?
9 A Correct.
10 Q And in fact, AYSO coaches and USYSA
11 certified coaches can cross license, right?
12 A The very lowest level of a licensing
13 structure, just the entry level, the very lowest
14 level.
15 Q So AYSO won't let your higher level of
16 coaches cross certify, and you won't let theirs?
17 A No, the Federation coaching level is
18 so superior and higher to the AYSO coaches that we
19 allow crossover only at the entry level, and then if
20 they, if AYSO coaches want to go to a higher level,
21 they do it through the Federation system, or through
22 the NSCAA. There is absolutely no reason for a
23 Federation licensed coach to go in the other
24 direction.
25 You have to understand AYSO programs
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1 are purely recreational level and purely participation
2 oriented. They are not competitive programs, so you
3 can't improve yourself as a coach, coaching rec
4 players all the time.
5 Q What percentage of the USYSA players
6 are recreational?
7 A Probably 70 percent are between the
8 ages of 5 and 10 years old.
9 Q And what percentage of your players
10 above 10 years old are recreation?
11 A Above ten?
12 Q Yes.
13 A Boy, I'm not sure of the exact
14 numbers. Do you know offhand, Virgil?
15 MR. LEWIS: I think the vast majority
16 of our players are recreational, and start thinking in
17 terms of highly competitive players and elite players,
18 I would say 90 percent of our players are
19 recreational.
20 A The leagues start forming at about 11
21 years old, so about 11.
22 MS. BALDWIN: So basically, the answer
23 is about 10 percent of them are highly competitive --
24 A Yeah.
25 MS. BALDWIN: -- in the Youth
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1 Division?
2 MR. GREGORY: Thank you.
3 MS. BALDWIN: Panel, do you have any
4 questions? Cynthia gets to go first this time.
5 MS. KELLY: I didn't get to go first
6 yet.
7 DR. CONTIGUGLIA: Go for it, Cynthia.
8 EXAMINATION
9 BY MS. KELLY:
10 Q Your bylaws are all here?
11 A Mm-hm.
12 Q Last night I asked you why you
13 couldn't change your bylaws without approval of USSF,
14 and you said you couldn't, I think.
15 A I'm not sure I remember the question.
16 Q I'm not sure; it doesn't matter.
17 A I thought you asked about
18 incorporation.
19 Q I will reask it now.
20 Could you make a change to your bylaws
21 without any approval from USSF?
22 A Yes.
23 Q So you potentially, theoretically,
24 could make a change they don't like in theory?
25 A In theory I could, but if they didn't
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1 like it, they would make me change it back.
2 Q How?
3 A They would say it doesn't comply with
4 the Federation rule, or it doesn't comply with the
5 higher rule such as the Sports Act.
6 MS. BALDWIN: May I interrupt? Who
7 would say you had to change it back?
8 A The Rules Committee.
9 MS. BALDWIN: We discussed --
10 A The Rules Committee of the Federation.
11 MS. BALDWIN: We've discussed there is
12 no vehicle for ratification by the entire IFS
13 Federation, so it's simply the rules chairman could
14 say you have got to change it?
15 A The rules get reviewed, and I agree
16 that it would be done after the fact.
17 MS. BALDWIN: But there is no
18 constitutional provision or provision in your bylaws
19 that says they can do that? It would strictly be peer
20 pressure.
21 MR. MONACO: There's two provisions.
22 MS. KELLY: In their bylaws?
23 MR. MONACO: No, in ours.
24 MS. BALDWIN: That say that you have to
25 ratify --
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1 MR. MONACO: Are you talking about
2 divisions?
3 MS. KELLY: We're talking about this
4 organization.
5 MR. MONACO: For the division, there's
6 one that they must submit their changes within ten
7 days.
8 A I believe our bylaws say we must
9 comply with the Sports Act, that are in our bylaws.
10 MS. BALDWIN: Well, okay. I think you
11 answered, I think you answered that question. I mean,
12 I think we all have, certainly, I would, there seems
13 to be a discrepancy between practice and what it says
14 in certain cases, and I'm going to go home and read
15 this whole thing cover to cover --
16 A Aren't you lucky?
17 MS. BALDWIN: -- just for the fun of
18 it.
19 Q (By Ms. Kelly) I have to say one
20 reason that -- I can only speak for myself -- that I'm
21 looking at you all a little more, and I haven't done
22 due diligence on this, is the fact that you are a
23 separate corporation with a separate set of bylaws, a
24 separate set of board of directors, and so forth, and
25 so on?
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1 A Overlapping Board of Directors.
2 Q Overlapping how?
3 A In that five of the members of the
4 Board of Directors of the youth -- Tom asked that
5 question last night.
6 Q It's not overlapping your way,
7 according to -- finish your answer.
8 A Five of the members of the nine-member
9 Board of Directors of the USYSA are on the Federation
10 Board of Directors.
11 Q And how did that, overlapping your
12 way, how, but there are no officers of USSF who are on
13 your board?
14 A Yes, me. I'm an officer.
15 Q But not ex-officio?
16 A I'm chairman of the board.
17 MS. BALDWIN: How many are non-youth
18 people who overlap?
19 A By non-youth people? None.
20 MS. BALDWIN: Thank you.
21 Q It says in the definition of the Youth
22 Division, or the definition is: Means the
23 administrative and coordinating body for all NSAs,
24 containing leagues and teams in which individuals
25 under 19 years of age for soccer shall also be the
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1 coordinating body for all Youth Soccer Organizations
2 in the U.S. as delegated by the Federation.
3 How would you say you fulfill your
4 role as the coordinating body for all Youth Soccer
5 Organizations in the United States?
6 A What we try to do is to work with as
7 many organizations as we can who participate in the
8 game of soccer, who provide soccer programs. Many of
9 them are listed here, and these work at the state
10 level and are interested.
11 One of the other ways we coordinate is
12 I think our role was more of an educational role in
13 working with organizations. We will provide coaching
14 programs, referee programs for non-affiliated
15 organizations. I told you about the fact that we want
16 to get the Hispanic groups involved. I wrote the
17 coaching book for the boy scouts and they're not a
18 member. So those are the ways we interact.
19 Q The National Youth Council is your --
20 A The legislative body, that's the state
21 associations, representatives of the National Youth
22 Council.
23 Q It says, the National Youth Council
24 shall be the governing body of this association.
25 A Those are the state associations, the
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1 state youth associations.
2 Q Okay. Well, I'm not looking -- I'm
3 trying to decide what your organization's board of
4 directors or governance group is, and I think that I'm
5 understanding that it's the National Youth Council?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Okay. And that consists of your board
8 of directors, your subregional directors and
9 representatives from the affiliated NSAs and associate
10 members, so effectively 90 percent --
11 A The member NSAs, not affiliate.
12 Q I'm reading what it says in your
13 bylaws.
14 A Okay. Excuse me.
15 Q So effectively 90 percent or whatever
16 of your group is NSA reps, basically?
17 A Yeah, and let me clarify it. It's
18 those same NSA reps that elect the officers of the
19 U.S. Soccer Federation.
20 Q But not ex-officio for being here?
21 A I'm not sure I understand what you
22 mean by ex-officio?
23 Q Well, the fact that they're on your
24 National Youth Council; is that what gives them the
25 right to elect the USSF officers? Is that what I'm
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1 hearing?
2 A Yes.
3 Q I haven't looked at their stuff.
4 Now, the affiliates of your
5 organization are these people here. And it says that
6 among the people who are on the National Youth Council
7 are representatives from the associate members. And
8 then when I looked over to see the voting policy of
9 your organization, I don't see associate members
10 having a vote, although under Rule 4018, which is the
11 voting bylaws, I don't see any -- do they vote?
12 A I think they have one vote.
13 MR. MONACO: They just get one vote.
14 Q Where is it?
15 A Can I have him -- again, I hate rules.
16 Q There's no -- just at some point.
17 That would be great. You also have your own separate
18 budget?
19 A Mm-hm.
20 Q If I recall correctly, your essential
21 income is 50 percent of the registration. Is that
22 right?
23 A I would say that's some of our income
24 is 50 percent of the registration fees that are paid
25 to the Federation, yes.
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1 Q So your overall budget is about?
2 A About $4 million.
3 Q And so about a million of that or so
4 comes from these registrations if I got the numbers
5 right?
6 A Probably closer to, yeah, about a
7 million to us.
8 Q To you.
9 And then the other 3 million ballpark
10 comes from?
11 A Other fees, competitions, sponsorship.
12 Q You have a budget committee. You do
13 your budget. What is the process for the approval of
14 that budget?
15 A The budget committee does the budget.
16 It's approved by the Board of Directors, and then it
17 goes to the National Council, and the National Council
18 votes on it.
19 Q The National Council of the USSF?
20 A No, of the USYSA.
21 Q So it's an internal budget, it's
22 normal corporate, so the USSF doesn't approve your
23 budget?
24 A No.
25 Q You also have an appeals committee.
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1 How does that integrate with the appeals committee of
2 the USSF?
3 A Okay. The appeals process -- well,
4 the Federation, the youth appeals committee, which is
5 the highest level within the Youth Division, the next
6 level up is the Federation, and we pass right through
7 to the Federation.
8 MS. BALDWIN: May I ask along that line
9 now then, are your financials audited strictly as your
10 particular division or is it part of a USSF --
11 A They're separate.
12 MS. BALDWIN: -- annual audit?
13 A They're separate as our specific
14 division.
15 MS. BALDWIN: Separate audit, thank
16 you.
17 Q (By Ms. Kelly) Athletes. It seems
18 that if you fulfill this function on behalf of the
19 USSF, it seems to me that there should be a component
20 for athlete representation somewhere in your
21 governance, and I know you have got little kids, but
22 there's a ten-year rule so if somebody is 15, maybe
23 they could do it at 25, have you thought about having
24 it, and what, there's nothing in here for athletes at
25 all.
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1 A We've had that discussion, and that
2 discussion is going on within the Federation. And the
3 dilemma that we have is definition of athlete,
4 particularly -- we had some of this discussion at the
5 Membership Committee as to what the definition of
6 athlete is. And my understanding of the Sports Act is
7 that the definition of athlete was someone who has
8 participated and represented their country within the
9 last ten years or who is actively playing the sport.
10 And we are exploring those methods of getting athlete
11 involvement within the Youth Division.
12 We do recognize that's something we
13 definitely want to do, but again because we have four-
14 and five-year-old players, is an active athlete or
15 somebody who is representing their country. On the
16 other hand, we do have 15- and 17-year-old kids who do
17 represent their country in international competition,
18 but do you put 15- and 17-year-olds on your Board of
19 Directors? So, those are the issues that we're trying
20 to deal with, but yes, we recognize that need.
21 Q I had a question about the description
22 of your organization in this which was given to us,
23 everybody knows what that is? This is a Soccer in the
24 USA?
25 A Is that SECA?
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1 Q SECA, yeah. This is a description of
2 your organization, I assume it's written by your
3 organization.
4 A No, it's not. It's not written by us.
5 Q It's not written by you? Okay. Well,
6 tell me how this is wrong, or if it is.
7 A Okay.
8 Q You have just by way of background,
9 you have your own offices in Richardson, Texas, with
10 your own executive director, and I love your 800
11 number, 800-4-Soccer.
12 The USYSA is the Youth Division of
13 U.S. Soccer. The largest youth soccer body in the
14 nation, U.S. Youth Soccer develops and administers
15 both recreational and competitive programs including
16 national championships in several age categories. The
17 organization is divided into 55 individual state
18 associations with some states divided into two
19 associations. A philosophy of decentralization gives
20 USYSA's state associations considerable control over
21 their administrative events and marketing. There are
22 programs for all levels of soccer skill, but gives
23 special emphasis to competitive players including the
24 National Olympic Development Program and the
25 Snickers/USYSA National Championships. The
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1 organization has a full-time office and staff in
2 Richardson, Texas, but many of its state associations
3 also have offices with full- or part-time staffing.
4 A That's pretty accurate.
5 Q Pretty accurate.
6 It feels like you're your own
7 organization when you read that to an outsider, who
8 doesn't -- that feels like it's a self-sufficient
9 organization. What salary did you pay your executive
10 director?
11 A I think he rose up to the level --
12 Q Ballpark?
13 A I think about 55,000.
14 Q Okay. How about term limits, just term
15 limits question? This is going to sound dim -- I do
16 have an MBA, I'm not as dim as I look -- if you can be
17 elected for three terms of two years as chairman, and
18 you were elected in 1990, that is, that seems like --
19 what's the succession thing?
20 A I'm now the past chairman.
21 Q Okay. So there's a new chairman?
22 A Right, right there.
23 Q Okay. So there is some form of term
24 limitation within your organization?
25 A Yes.
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1 Q Okay. How many women officers?
2 A There are nine board members, three.
3 Q And about a reasonable percentage on
4 the National Youth Council?
5 A Oh, God.
6 Q Oh God means a lot?
7 A We're inundated with women leaders.
8 Q Inundated is not a good verb here.
9 A No, we feel very, very strongly about
10 the participation of women.
11 Q Clearly.
12 A Got me.
13 MR. ALKALAY: I would quit while I was
14 ahead, Bob.
15 A No, I'm not going to give up on this,
16 because we are instrumental in the development of
17 women sport in this country, and youth soccer is one
18 of the three sports that are titled, mainly Title 9
19 sports for women in this country. More colleges offer
20 soccer scholarships than almost any other type of
21 sports scholarship for women.
22 Q Yes.
23 A So we've created that demand, so I'm
24 very strong about what we do for women in this
25 country.
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1 Q Is there a minority outreach program
2 of any sort?
3 A Yes, we have a program called Soccer
4 Start, which we innovated a number of years ago to do
5 inner city soccer programs and develop programs into
6 poor neighborhoods. We are developing relationships
7 with other organizations that do the same thing such
8 as soccer in the streets.
9 Again, we are trying to reach out to
10 the Hispanic groups and get them involved. And I
11 think the thing that we're finding, this is a
12 long-term project, this is not a short-term project,
13 and I also mentioned that our organization developed
14 the top soccer program for the Special Olympics. Mike
15 Smith, the head of soccer for the Special Olympics,
16 and our organization put together their soccer
17 program.
18 MS. KELLY: Great. Thank you.
19 MR. SATROM: I have no questions, other
20 than a request of Mr. Steinbrecher. If you would be
21 kind enough to send me or perhaps the panel, a list of
22 your Board of Directors, actual members for the USYSA,
23 the USSF, the foundation, that should be good enough.
24 We've talked among ourselves about financial and
25 budgets as well.
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1 MR. STEINBRECHER: You wanted the staff
2 yesterday as well.
3 MS. KELLY: The organizational chart.
4 MR. SATROM: The organizational chart,
5 but for my purposes, anyway, I would like to see who
6 all these warm bodies are, as well as the interlocking
7 directors and things like that.
8 MR. ALKALAY: Maybe we should just
9 append that to the post hearing brief.
10 MS. BALDWIN: That would be fine.
11 DR. CONTIGUGLIA: I also might add, if
12 it would be helpful for you, it's in the Articles of
13 the Incorporation of the USYSA, that upon dissolution
14 all of their funds go to the United States Soccer
15 Federation.
16 MR. GREGORY: That was USYSA? I would
17 like to inquire about that.
18 DR. CONTIGUGLIA: Okay. Inquire.
19 MR. ROWAN: The chair can determine
20 that.
21 MR. GREGORY: With the chair's
22 consent.
23 MS. BALDWIN: He was talking with me.
24 Would you please repeat that?
25 MR. ROWAN: He wants to inquire.
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1 MR. GREGORY: Well, Dr. Contiguglia
2 just said that upon dissolution of the USYSA, its
3 funds are distributed to the USSF, and I just was
4 looking at Tab 2 of their exhibit which speaks for
5 itself, and it is the charter of the USYSA and it
6 doesn't say that at all.
7 DR. CONTIGUGLIA: There was an
8 amendment to that probably, oh, about two years ago,
9 and you may not have that. I can get it for you.
10 MR. MONACO: It's irrelevant because
11 the answer is Section 2 (G), which I have already
12 cited, says you have to do it. Page 8.
13 EXAMINATION
14 BY MR. TOLES:
15 Q Does your division ever receive funds
16 from USSF for programs or projects or whatever?
17 A Yes. Some, yes.
18 Q How often does the USYSA Board of
19 Directors meet?
20 A Six times a year.
21 Q When was the last National Youth
22 Council meeting?
23 A Last July.
24 Q And when is the next one?
25 A This coming July. It's in conjunction
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1 with the USSF national meetings. They're all run at
2 the same time.
3 Q Okay. Except your bylaws say that you
4 should meet at least twice a year?
5 A The National Council?
6 Q Yeah, I'm sorry, that's the Board of
7 Directors.
8 MR. MONACO: That's the region.
9 Q Do you have committees within the
10 USYSA?
11 A Yes.
12 Q They're not outlined anywhere in your
13 bylaws.
14 A They are.
15 MR. MONACO: But not all of them.
16 A But they are, yes. There's a standing
17 committee outlined.
18 MR. TOLES: Okay. No other questions.
19 MS. BALDWIN: Do you have other
20 questions? That's the extent of your questions?
21 Thank you.
22 DR. CONTIGUGLIA: Thank you very much.
23 MS. BALDWIN: Oh, excuse me, may I ask
24 just one?
25 EXAMINATION
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1 BY MS. BALDWIN:
2 Q Is there a compelling reason why you
3 are based in Dallas, Texas, when the USSF is based in
4 Chicago?
5 A Well, the reason for the moves were
6 logistical and space. You have to understand --
7 Q USSF didn't have enough space?
8 A No, USSF moved from New York to
9 Colorado Springs to Chicago. At the same time the
10 Youth Division ended up in Dallas because there wasn't
11 space, I believe, in Colorado Springs, and we ended up
12 in Dallas, because we put it out to bid, and we got a
13 good offer, and so that's why we're separated.
14 There's more issues of room than any other, of space.
15 Q Somehow, I can't imagine United States
16 Swimming ever allowing its age group division to be
17 housed other than at the national headquarters.
18 Thank you.
19 A I personally agree with you.
20 MR. MONACO: Madam Chair, the one
21 question that Cynthia asked, it's Page 76, Section 2
22 (a), one vote for each associate.
23 MS. KELLY: Thanks.
24 MR. MONACO: It's stuck in the middle.
25 And hidden in that paragraph, 2 (a).
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1 MS. BALDWIN: If we're through with Dr.
2 Bob, let's take a five-minute break.
3 MR. ALKALAY: Could you make it, Mrs.
4 Baldwin, can we have ten minutes instead of five? We
5 have to make some copies.
6 MS. BALDWIN: Okay. Ten minutes.
7 (Brief recess taken from 10:40 to
8 10:50 a.m.)
9 MS. BALDWIN: Let's get started
10 everyone. I think the principals are all back.
11 MR. ALKALAY: Virgil, will you take the
12 stand.
13 VIRGIL LEWIS,
14 the witness herein, having been first duly sworn to
15 state the whole truth, testified on his oath as
16 follows:
17 EXAMINATION
18 BY MR. ALKALAY:
19 Q Mr. Lewis, would you briefly describe
20 your background, mostly as it relates to soccer, and
21 your current position as it relates to soccer?
22 A Sure. I started in this game as a
23 soccer dad about two decades ago, I had a 6-year-old
24 that came home and said that I can play soccer "if,"
25 and that was if I were to be the coach. I agreed
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1 reluctantly at the time. I'm delighted that I have,
2 except for some occasions, done that over the years.
3 In that process, I have served in a
4 number of roles. As Bob Contiguglia, I have gone
5 through the state and the national coaching license
6 program. I hold a National A license coaching
7 certificate. I have coached at a number of levels,
8 state champions and the like.
9 I have worked in the Olympic
10 Development Program, and in respect to that, in 1990,
11 I became the Olympic Development Program boys'
12 chairman for the country. For four years, I operated
13 in that program for our board side of the house.
14 In 1996, I ran for and was elected to
15 the chair of USYSA and have been serving in that
16 capacity since that time.
17 Q Virgil, there's been a fair amount of
18 discussion about the manner in which National State
19 Associations interface with the U.S. Soccer
20 Federation. Could you comment on that, and what your
21 experience in that has been?
22 A Let me start off by simply saying, I
23 have been at a disadvantage for not having heard all
24 the testimony. I hope you can sense the sincerity in
25 my voice that I regret having not been here today.
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1 Actually, I was having a great deal of fun doing
2 something I think was very beneficial for both of our
3 organizations. I was testifying before the National
4 Commission of Civic Renewal with Senator Sam Nunn, and
5 because of the graciousness of Burton Haimes, I was
6 able to testify on behalf of both organizations for
7 that commission. And it went very well, and I think
8 it was important for both of us in the real meaning of
9 what we do to be there, so that's why I wasn't here
10 yesterday.
11 Let me give you my own perspective,
12 regardless of what the testimony may or may not have
13 been, as to what the interface is between the United
14 State Soccer Federation and U.S. Youth Soccer. It's a
15 daily type of activity. It is not so much a formal
16 exchange of letters, exchange of reports, but it is a
17 daily activity, because the coaches that have been
18 hired by the Federation to administer coaching
19 programs and player programs in this country are
20 integrated down to the very basic grass roots of our
21 program. And by that I mean that when we have a Bobby
22 Howe or a Steve Sampson send out a memorandum
23 regarding we would like to see our players working in
24 this area, working in that area, that information is
25 passed down to every National State Association
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1 through this coaching hierarchy, and it is implemented
2 in each of our 55 state associations. This happens on
3 a daily basis.
4 When we have issues that rise within
5 our state associations, oftentimes those issues go
6 directly to the Federation, and I can give you two
7 examples of those within the past two weeks, because I
8 was merely copied on those issues. One issue had to
9 do with the non-affiliated player issue that you may
10 have heard it also described as our Latin player
11 program, where we're trying to identify Hispanics.
12 Well, actually, we're trying to identify all players
13 that are out there that aren't affiliated in some
14 fashion with an organization, that's affiliated with
15 the Federation.
16 And so we've made some attempts to get
17 into local communities and into inner cities and to
18 have tryouts with our national staff present to
19 identify those players and bring them into the fold,
20 as it were, because we want -- and I don't think
21 anyone sitting here wants a second-best team -- we
22 want the very best team to represent this country.
23 And to do that, we have to find the best athletes.
24 And that's what concerns me a great
25 deal, as an aside when I hear that AYSO feels that
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1 we've excluded a group, their group specifically from
2 the Olympic Development Program. We would be cutting
3 our nose off to spite our face if we did not want to
4 have the best players. We want the best players
5 representing this country when they play other
6 countries. So this is an example of how it is on a
7 daily basis, integrated into our program.
8 The other example, and that example
9 was that one of our state associations was alarmed at
10 the use of the word "Hispanic," and felt if we're just
11 singling out one group that may have been unfair to
12 other groups. And that went directly to the
13 Federation. The Federation immediately changed that
14 program. It never came through the youth association,
15 the Youth Division and it was immediately changed to a
16 non-affiliated function of the Federation, not
17 Hispanic only.
18 Another issue had to do with a sponsor
19 issue in which a Federation sponsor appeared at a
20 tournament that was being run by a National State
21 Association, and at that time that national federation
22 sponsor proceeded to advertise their product when that
23 National State Association had a competing sponsor for
24 that state association. And again, the complaint went
25 directly to the Federation and was dealt with. It was
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1 just something that was copied to me as a courtesy
2 copy for the Youth Division.
3 We have a lot of things that happen
4 like that on a daily basis between the Federation and
5 its members, which are the National State
6 Associations.
7 Q Now, there's also been testimony and
8 references made to the current state of affairs with
9 regard to the review of National State Association
10 rules. And could you comment upon what's happening
11 with regard to that process, and where you stand in
12 connection with reviewing National State Association
13 rules and regulations?
14 A Sure. Let me first start by saying
15 mea culpa.
16 It's a responsibility of our
17 association, as you have heard in the rules, to have
18 the rules and bylaws of each of the National State
19 Associations in both the Youth Division and at the
20 Federation.
21 What I have learned since July, among
22 other things I have learned, I think I have learned a
23 great deal, but one thing is that a national
24 organization of volunteers moves incredibly slowly;
25 however, they have the best intentions, and I have no
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1 doubt that they will eventually move.
2 In September of '96, I asked my rules
3 committee, and it's a committee of five volunteers,
4 our chairman is Jim Ferguson from Virginia, I asked
5 him to obtain a copy of all of those rules and to
6 review those, because we had already, I had already
7 been advised by Mr. Haimes that we had a situation in
8 Arkansas in which a rule was clearly erroneous.
9 Now, that rule was corrected, but I
10 wanted to know if there were other rules out there,
11 Burton Haimes wanted to know if there were other rules
12 out there like that, and so my rules committee is in
13 the process of gathering all of those rules, reviewing
14 those rules. So each of the four regional committee
15 members will be reviewing some 12 or, 12 to 15 state
16 sets of rules and bylaws.
17 When I learned, it was kind of short
18 notice, but when I learned that AYSO was requesting
19 from the Federation the rules that they had, I asked
20 Jim Ferguson to speed that process up if he could,
21 because I felt like I just as soon have AYSO review
22 these, because it would take a little burden off my
23 volunteers, number one, and they would be looking at
24 it to see if, in fact, there was something that they
25 took issue with, and then we could deal with it. I
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1 still intend to do that, and I will state on the
2 record today that I have absolutely no problem, when I
3 have them in hand, handing them to AYSO, and hoping
4 they will look at them line per line and determine
5 exactly those issues that are there. Let's get them
6 out on the table, and let's get them dealt with.
7 And it's my understanding from Jim
8 Ferguson that we have nearly all of those in terms of
9 percentage, 90, 95 percent of those are in now, and --
10 MS. BALDWIN: Do you know the date, of
11 when they were all, 95 percent in?
12 A I don't, and Madam Chairman, one of
13 the issues is that as the rule says, they're to send
14 the rules in after their annual general meetings,
15 within 60 days, six weeks or something, of the time of
16 their annual general meeting, because that will have
17 the latest changes. Our annual general meetings at
18 the National State Associations go year-round, with 55
19 state associations, they're nearly every weekend.
20 MS. BALDWIN: You don't have the
21 vehicle to require them to have the same fiscal year
22 and annual meeting?
23 A Not that I'm aware of. I suspect that
24 we could as a National Council impose that, but then
25 we get into an issue as to whether their accountant
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1 believes the fiscal year should be October 1st to
2 September 30 or whether it should be a calendar year,
3 or what the FASB standards are, so then we start
4 getting into those issues.
5 And as far as their annual general
6 meeting, let me just share with you that one of the
7 nice things about having state associations have some
8 control over their operation is that it allows them to
9 find those dates within their calendar to have the
10 important meetings. For example, I attended
11 Minnesota's Annual General Meeting, and it's held in
12 November, because hopefully there's not ten feet of
13 snow on the ground, and they're able to get it done,
14 and it's still after their fall season. Other annual
15 general meetings are held as it seems to fit their
16 schedule. For example, Alaska has theirs in August,
17 simply because it doesn't thaw out until May. They
18 play their season, and then they have their annual
19 general meeting, and everything is frozen again until
20 next May. It's just the way it works out in each
21 state that uses the calendar to its own advantage.
22 Q In general, Virgil, how would you say
23 that -- strike that. Let me rephrase that.
24 You are aware that the U.S. Soccer
25 Federation has a rule in Rule 2014, Section 3, that
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1 the amateur and youth divisions shall coordinate
2 programs and competitions and encourage interplay with
3 affiliated and non-affiliated soccer organizations.
4 What has your experience been as chair
5 of the youth division?
6 A As chair of the youth division, it
7 goes back to July of '96, but in that time, we have
8 had a couple of instances in which we have had
9 problems between state associations and local AYSO
10 organizations as to having interplay.
11 That couple of incidents, for example,
12 I'm thinking in terms of Arkansas and Plano, Texas.
13 Those are two situations, local areas, not entire
14 states, but local areas, cities, communities, that
15 have had problems that have risen to our level, and
16 that's with over 3 million players playing.
17 We have had two issues. On those
18 issues, what we've done, in the first issue, Burton
19 Haimes and I were able to arrive at an agreement as to
20 how it should be dealt with, with the Arkansas issue,
21 and that included making sure that Arkansas got that
22 rule changed, which was done, which said, we don't
23 want interplay with AYSO, and I'm not sure exactly
24 what the language, I'm not going to...but it has been
25 changed, and interplay is encouraged. It's encouraged
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1 in the rule book that you have there.
2 Again, folks, we're dealing with I
3 would guess a half million or more volunteers. They
4 don't read that rule book. I wish that I could
5 mandate that they do read the rule book. What they
6 are, they're moms and dads who are spending the extra
7 little bit of time in their schedule to be a team
8 administrator, to be a league president, to be a field
9 liner. And if we are going to mandate to our
10 volunteers that they're going to be 100 percent
11 responsible for every dotted "i" and crossed "t,"
12 Number 1, Mr. Swatsburg and Mr. Gregory would be out
13 of a job, but they're just not going to do it.
14 I won't have the volunteers, nor would
15 AYSO, we can't make them rule masters. So, I
16 apologize on behalf of my volunteers, and at the same 17 time, I will tell you, I'm very proud of them for what
18 they're doing for our youth.
19 Q Virgil, let's -- since it's gotten a
20 fair amount of attention in these proceedings, and I
21 know you weren't here for Frank Filo's testimony and
22 some of the other comments that have been made by
23 council for AYSO in connection with Plano -- but you
24 are personally familiar with the Plano grievance, are
25 you not?
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1 A Yes, I am.
2 Q And could you kind of take the panel
3 briefly, because they've heard, I think more than they
4 want to, and maybe more than they need to about this,
5 but just to give the, sort of a more comprehensive and
6 full perspective of what occurred and ending up where
7 that proceeding now stands?
8 A Sure. Be happy to. First, two issues
9 in the Plano complaint that was heard before the
10 2101 --
11 MR. GREGORY: Excuse me, perhaps, I
12 should lodge an objection, since I, as I recall, the
13 witnesses from AYSO were not permitted to testify
14 thoroughly about the Plano, Texas matter as it was
15 under a pending grievance procedure. I don't care, I
16 suppose, if Mr. Lewis wants to go forward, and Mr.
17 Alkalay wants to get into it, but I think we were
18 precluded from giving the kind of fullness of the
19 story that Mr. Lewis has just been asked to to give.
20 MR. ALKALAY: May I comment?
21 MS. BALDWIN: Quickly.
22 MR. ALKALAY: My reaction to that is
23 that I jumped up and objected when Mr. Filo was
24 volunteering the story about threats and other things
25 that were going on in the course of the grievance
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1 proceeding and the resolution of the incident.
2 I want Mr. Lewis to focus on the time
3 line, what actions were taken by him and by the Youth
4 Division. And this is not revealing anything that
5 isn't part of the record in the grievance proceeding,
6 and I only have a couple of letters that I think do,
7 and do round out the record. Right now, I think it's
8 rather imbalanced, that's all.
9 MS. BALDWIN: Okay. If we can quickly
10 round out the record here, because I think there's a
11 lot of other issues that you would like to have Mr.
12 Lewis discuss as well.
13 MR. ALKALAY: Well, we're getting very
14 close to the end, because I think a lot of what Mr.
15 Lewis has is cumulative, so this won't take long.
16 A Very quickly, we received notice,
17 actual notice that this was a problem on the 3rd of
18 February, or maybe a couple of days before that. I
19 think the letter to us was dated January 28th, over a
20 weekend. We had notice of it on Monday, the 3rd.
21 North Texas was instructed to see
22 what's going on and correct it. I understand that
23 it's the same date the complaint was filed with the
24 2101 hearing.
25 What happened was on the 4th of
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1 February, and this was testified to by John Laurenza,
2 who is the president of the Plano league, he held, a
3 meeting was held with the 400 coaches who were
4 involved. We don't know how many were there or not
5 there, it was a scheduled coaches meeting that had
6 received a flyer, and that flyer had incorrect
7 information in it. It said that AYSO was not a
8 sanctioned affiliate, and that was wrong, and I
9 stipulated that to the hearing panel. That was
10 wrong. North Texas and Plano corrected that on the
11 4th day of February.
12 At that point, we were asked --
13 MR. LEVY: Are we getting into rank
14 hearsay at this point in time, Madam Chairman?
15 MS. BALDWIN: Have you seen the
16 document in which they did correct it, Mr. Lewis?
17 A No. That document wasn't the document
18 I'm referring to. They had a coaches meeting with all
19 of the involved coaches, and it was explained to them
20 at that time.
21 MR. LEVY: I think that's my rank
22 hearsay objection.
23 MS. BALDWIN: Do you know, were you
24 there?
25 A I was not.
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1 MS. BALDWIN: Do you know someone that
2 was there? Is there anything documented in writing?
3 A John Laurenza testified to that at the
4 2101 hearing.
5 MS. BALDWIN: But John is not here.
6 (Panel conferring.)
7 MS. BALDWIN: This is where our counsel
8 is saying the issue is, we're trying not to talk about
9 it in detail, because it's still pending.
10 MR. ALKALAY: But there was an enormous
11 amount of virtually every word spoken by Mr. Filo and
12 I don't know, maybe Perry could tell us how long he
13 testified, addressed the Plano incident over my
14 objection. I just want to round out the record.
15 MR. ROWAN: Peter, he talked about
16 factual knowledge that he knew of himself and got to
17 the point of the hearing, and then when there was a
18 contempt question, Hank --
19 MR. ALKALAY: Virgil was at the
20 hearing.
21 MR. LEVY: He's not testifying about
22 the hearing.
23 A I will keep it without any hearsay,
24 but let me just tell you that the hearing was
25 conducted, and at the conclusion of the hearing, there
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1 were several things decided. One of those things that
2 I had stated in the hearing --
3 MR. GREGORY: We weren't permitted to
4 present any testimony on this. I renew my objection.
5 A Well --
6 MR. ALKALAY: Part of Mr. Lewis' job is
7 to monitor these things. I would like to get two
8 letters into the record. I would like Mr. Lewis to
9 testify as to what he has done recently in connection
10 with the resolution of that. Remember, there was some
11 testimony about --
12 MS. BALDWIN: That doesn't change the
13 fact that the issue is still pending and there has not
14 been a resolution.
15 MR. ALKALAY: I just want to confirm
16 what Mr. Lewis did.
17 MS. BALDWIN: Physically, what he
18 personally did as the chairman of youth soccer, not
19 relating then to a hearing that he wasn't at?
20 A I was at the hearing.
21 MS. BALDWIN: You were?
22 MR. ALKALAY: He was at the hearing.
23 MR. LEVY: He wasn't at the coaches
24 meeting.
25 MR. ALKALAY: He wasn't at the coaches
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1 meeting. I will skip over the coaches meeting, if the
2 panel doesn't want to hear what was said at the
3 coaches meeting. He was at the hearing. And there
4 was testimony about the fact that a resolution was
5 attempted, and, in fact, brought about by the head of
6 that commission asking the two organizations to try to
7 get together, and I want Mr. Lewis to --
8 MR. GREGORY: I will object.
9 MR. ALKALAY: -- I want Mr. Lewis to be
10 able to testify as to what he did in carrying out the
11 chair person's directions, and the fact that we
12 haven't had a response yet from Mr. Haimes. We think
13 because it was going to help the AYSO --
14 MS. BALDWIN: Wait, Peter, stop.
15 MR. ALKALAY: You are right.
16 (Panel conferring.)
17 MS. BALDWIN: The panel says they don't
18 think all of this detail is really of that much
19 interest to what we're dealing with.
20 MR. ALKALAY: All right.
21 If that's the panel's view, I tried to
22 make that point earlier, and if that's the panel's
23 view, I would only want to get these two letters into
24 the record, and you can read them.
25 MS. BALDWIN: I think you can do that.
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1 MR. ROWAN: Let's see them for a minute.
2 (Respondent's Exhibits L and M were
3 marked.)
4 MR. SATROM: We'll take the letters, and we
5 can sort the wheat from the chaff.
6 A I can summarize this in one sentence,
7 with no testimony, we're working on it.
8 MS. BALDWIN: Let everybody see the letters,
9 please.
10 MR. ALKALAY: Two, one is dated February 4,
11 1997 from --
12 MS. BALDWIN: Give Mr. Gregory --
13 MR. GREGORY: I have the February 4th
14 MR. ALKALAY: You have that -- you didn't
15 put that in though, did you?
16 MR. GREGORY: No, I wasn't permitted to.
17 MS. BALDWIN: Did you try to admit it?
18 MR. GREGORY: It was one of those that I was
19 trying to get in.
20 MR. ALKALAY: You will have the
21 full --
22 MS. BALDWIN: So whose exhibit is it, yours
23 or his?
24 MR. ALKALAY: Do you want to call it a joint
25 exhibit?
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1 MR. GREGORY: Fine
2 MR. ROWAN: Don't pass that one out
3 yet. Let Fred see it, and let me look at it.
4 MR. ALKALAY: Then there's one dated
5 February 19, 1997.
6 MR. GREGORY: Oh, yes. Okay.
7 This was part of that package.
8 MR. ALKALAY: You don't have any
9 objection, do you, Fred?
10 MR. GREGORY: No, there was additional
11 correspondence that I wasn't permitted to put in
12 yesterday. Maybe we can make this part of a joint
13 package too.
14 MR. ROWAN: Are you talking about the
15 memo?
16 A Let's see.
17 MR. GREGORY: You mean Mr. Choi's
18 memo? No, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking
19 about my correspondence that was involved in this, and
20 since we passed that point, I'm not sure what else
21 there was.
22 MS. BALDWIN: We now have three
23 letters, correct?
24 MR. ROWAN: I have two.
25 MS. BALDWIN: Two and he's asked that
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1 he be able to submit a third.
2 Would you give Peter a copy of that
3 one, please?
4 Let me, Perry --
5 MR. ALKALAY: I don't really mind
6 having the actual correspondence, full package in
7 front of the panel.
8 MS. BALDWIN: Fine. Thank you.
9 (Claimant's Exhibit 14 was marked.)
10 MS. BALDWIN: Then I hope that
11 correspondence will help us in our deliberations.
12 It's not a matter we are truly deliberating since it's
13 still pending. It is, for us, it's an example, one
14 example of a situation, period.
15 Q (By Mr. Alkalay) And it is just that,
16 isn't it, Mr. Lewis? It is in your view, an isolated
17 incident?
18 A It's isolated, but I don't want to
19 lessen the importance. It needs to be dealt with, and
20 it's being dealt with, but as I say, we've had two of
21 those situations in the however many months I have
22 served as chair.
23 We had another incident in which AYSO
24 contacted us about a coach who was working or coaching
25 within USYSA, and AYSO's initial comment was that they
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1 had suspended this coach, or in some fashion taken a
2 disciplinary action because, a warrant for the coach's
3 arrest for some kind of battery. As soon as we found
4 out about that, we did, in fact, suspend that coach.
5 So we worked together on the issue as well. Those are
6 the issues that I'm aware of...
7 MR. HAIMES: I gave him my home
8 telephone number.
9 A It had to be an accident. I didn't do
10 that.
11 MS. BALDWIN: Peter.
12 Q (By Mr. Alkalay) there had been a
13 question, Virgil, a little bit earlier, I think from
14 Mr. Toles about Rule 4043. I think you may have been
15 here for that. Can you tell us what that rule is, and
16 what its purpose is and what experience, if any, you
17 have had with it?
18 A This rule -- and I was here for this,
19 and I'm not sure exactly what the question was looking
20 at in this rule -- but I can tell you that we are very
21 concerned and again, we're very concerned as both
22 organizations about parents, not parents, volunteers,
23 adults, who might, in some fasion, simply be involved
24 because of their ability to be around children and
25 take advantage of that, of abused children, and we've
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1 got to have an ability to restrict those individuals
2 from being near our youth players. And this is a
3 harsh rule. This calls for suspension. And someone
4 said, what's the due process?
5 Well, I think there's times when the
6 due process is to suspend first and allow the process
7 to go forward. For example, when we feel that we have
8 had someone commit a heinous crime, they may very well
9 be jailed even though it's just alleged. They're
10 certainly suspended from society until such time as
11 they have due process to correct it.
12 MR. ALKALAY: I have nothing else for
13 this witness.
14 MS. BALDWIN: Mr. Gregory is on.
15 EXAMINATION
16 BY MR. GREGORY:
17 Q Thank you. I will be brief, I hope.
18 I won't talk about Plano.
19 You testified about the vertical
20 structure that brings advice from Bobby Howe down to
21 all the levels of coaching. How is that information --
22 how is Bobby, how is the advice distributed to
23 affiliates and non-affiliated players and coaches of
24 USSF?
25 A To non-affiliated players and coaches?
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1 Can you clarify that, because are we talking about
2 leagues that aren't affiliated in any fashion with
3 either the Federation or USYSA?
4 Q Right.
5 A I'm not sure that we get to those
6 totally unaffiliated groups.
7 Now, I will add that an effort now is
8 being made to do that very thing, and the fact that
9 the Federation has instituted a program called the
10 Under-14 program. And the Under-14 program, Burton,
11 doesn't necessarily agree with this program, but it
12 involves the ability of coaches to go out and to have
13 trial sessions with unaffiliated leagues and clubs.
14 Q That's a new innovation?
15 A Two years -- this is the first actual
16 year of having the paid staff out in the field, yes.
17 Q And who hired that paid staff?
18 A The Soccer Federation.
19 Q USSF?
20 A That's correct.
21 Q Who is that person?
22 A Actually, there's five of those
23 persons. There's one in each of the four regions and
24 then they're involved with the Under-14 program, and
25 then there's one or two, one person who is tasked
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1 solely with going out to the unaffiliated leagues, but
2 all of our coaches are instructed to look at players
3 out there.
4 Q All right. There are a lot of
5 innovations, I guess. One is to get control of all of
6 the bylaws from the National State Associations,
7 right?
8 A Let me qualify that. It is not a new
9 innovation to do that, it may be a new innovation that
10 it gets done. I'm not going to claim success yet, but
11 it's being done.
12 Q And you said Arkansas got corrected?
13 A That's correct.
14 Q How do you know that?
15 A I asked their state president, and
16 they have confirmed that that was dealt with at a
17 Board of Directors meeting, and I want to see it with
18 my own eyes in the bylaws, but I have a committee
19 that's been delegated to that responsibility and I
20 will allow them to do that first. But as I said, I
21 will also send a copy to you guys, and you guys tell
22 me for sure.
23 Q Now, you have 90 percent, you estimate
24 of the bylaws or rules or constitution whatever
25 they're called of the National State Association --
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1 A That's correct.
2 Q -- and as I heard your testimony, at
3 least as early of September of last year, a request
4 was made to see those --
5 A To collect those.
6 Q -- to collect those and look at them?
7 A That's correct.
8 Q Two weeks ago, USSF was able to
9 furnish only 14 of 55. Can you explain why since
10 September of 1996, USSF hasn't been able to get more
11 than 14 of 55 of those?
12 A I certainly can, and as I said before,
13 mea culpa. I'm the one who had asked my committee to
14 get those together. I did not follow up. I will get
15 those.
16 Q Arkansas wasn't among them, so
17 Arkansas wasn't furnished two weeks ago, but you can
18 say because you have heard that it's been corrected?
19 A That's correct. Yes, I do believe my
20 state president.
21 Q Do you know where that Arkansas rule
22 is now?
23 A Probably Little Rock.
24 MR. GREGORY: I have no further
25 questions.
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1 MS. BALDWIN: You are finished.
2 MR. ALKALAY: I have nothing, and I
3 think that's our last witness.
4 MS. BALDWIN: Okay.
5 MR. ALKALAY: If you have any
6 questions...
7 MS. BALDWIN: Does the panel have
8 questions?
9 EXAMINATION
10 BY MR. SATROM:
11 Q I just want to make certain I
12 understood your comment that an athlete could be
13 suspended without a hearing under certain
14 circumstances in due process?
15 A Under this rule I'm talking about, the
16 adult could be suspended based on litigation that's
17 been brought, and we're talking about the safety and
18 welfare of the child.
19 MR. ALKALAY: That deals with an adult
20 who is accused of child or sex abuse.
21 MS. BALDWIN: But what if you had an
22 amateur athlete who was accused of sexual abuse of
23 some kind. Could he be suspended, he or she be
24 suspended without a hearing?
25 A In the amateur division? I can't
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1 respond to that. I would say that there is a FIFA
2 provision that allows for an athlete to be suspended
3 if there's an assault on a referee, but there's still
4 due process, folks, it comes as part of the process.
5 MR. MONACO: The answer is yes. We
6 have two situations, both of which have been approved
7 by the USOC, to suspend in advance without a hearing.
8 Referee assault and abuse, and this situation. We
9 just have to give -- we have to give a hearing within
10 30 days after that.
11 MS. BALDWIN: But that wouldn't be just
12 for adults, that could be for an athlete as well?
13 MR. MONACO: Yes, ma'am, that's exactly
14 what I'm talking about.
15 EXAMINATION
16 BY MR. TOLES:
17 Q Who, from the USOC?
18 MR. MONACO: I would have to, I will
19 have to check with the, actually, the Youth Division,
20 because on this one rule, the Youth Division, and we
21 also have in there Rule 3041 on referee assault and
22 abuse, and we were told those were the two cases where
23 we could have a suspension in advance without a
24 hearing.
25 MS. BALDWIN: So they had to have
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1 gotten that from you, Mr. Rowan?
2 The only person they could have gotten
3 it from on the USOC side is sitting to my right.
4 Q (By Mr. Toles) Are you familiar with
5 what we have been talking about yesterday as the 100
6 percent rule?
7 A Yes, I am.
8 Q I kind of got the impression that
9 there was a proper use of that rule, and then we heard
10 some instances where there's an improper use of that
11 rule. Could you briefly describe for me the proper
12 use of that and give me an example of an improper
13 use.
14 A I can do it briefly. It will be
15 history, but I will try.
16 The 100 percent rule is a rule that's
17 used within USYSA for members of USYSA to make sure
18 that we get all of those players that are out there
19 playing registered, and there are several reasons for
20 that. We have what we call house leagues, and a house
21 league is put together so that players can register
22 and be insured and can play the game, but that may not
23 be their club team. They may not go on a club team
24 until the next season, the spring or the fall.
25 But what we want to be sure of is that
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1 every member of that house league is, in fact,
2 registered for insurance purposes, because they're
3 playing one another. And also from strictly a
4 financial perspective, if all we had registered from
5 that USYSA club was the competitive team, we would be
6 providing a lot of resources to just that one team and
7 not being able to have the financial base of that
8 entire club that we are, in fact, supporting.
9 So what we want is for that entire
10 club to register with us, so that we know who they
11 are, where they're at and that they're insured, and
12 plus, we're required to do that by the Federation. We
13 have to show that we have registered all of our
14 members.
15 Q What would be an improper use of that?
16 A An improper use of that would be, for
17 example, if a player from AYSO or a team from AYSO
18 wanted to play as well in a USYSA organization, and we
19 said okay, player, you are part of the Arkansas group,
20 and until you get the entire Arkansas AYSO group
21 registered, you can't play here. That would
22 indefinitely be an improper use of this. It's, that's
23 illegal.
24 Same thing with a team. If a team
25 from AYSO wants to play and will follow the rules of
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1 USYSA of that National State Association member, and,
2 for example, some National State Association members
3 might not allow a team to come in, because each year
4 they draft all of the players fresh, and they don't
5 take teams, they take players, so, if the team wanted
6 to come as individual players and be drafted, that
7 would be fine.
8 And the National State Associations
9 that allow for teams to join, that would be fine too.
10 And folks, let me tell you, it's happening a lot. It
11 happens every day, every season, teams, players play
12 in both and around the country again, I want to stress
13 this 3.2 million players with just the numbers you
14 have heard today are out there, and we have had a
15 couple of incidents where it hasn't worked.
16 MR. TOLES: I'll allow my colleagues to
17 ask any questions on that particular issue, if they
18 have any.
19 MS. BALDWIN: I have a question, but
20 you're not finished.
21 MR. TOLES: I thought I had another
22 question, but I can't remember. I will yield to you.
23 EXAMINATION
24 BY MS. BALDWIN:
25 Q First of all, I have shown this to
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1 Peter. You don't mind if I enter into the record,
2 also along with the 1995, '94 audit, the 1995/'96
3 audit?
4 MR. ALKALAY: I have no objection.
5 MR. ROWAN: Can we agree that that's a
6 stipulated entry by both parties, since the panel
7 really can't enter evidence.
8 MR. GREGORY: We have no
9 objection.
10 MR. ALKALAY: Fine.
11 MS. BALDWIN: Thank you.
12 Q (By Ms. Baldwin) Regarding that, it
13 says in both of your notes for financial statements on
14 both audits, it says in fiscal 1984, two separate
15 autonomous legal entities, United States Youth Soccer
16 Association and the United States Amateur Soccer
17 Association were formed to carry out activities
18 related to the administration of youth programs and
19 amateur programs respectively. These organizations
20 have independently selected boards of directors, and
21 their financial position, results of operations, and
22 cash flows are not reflected in the accompanying
23 financial statements.
24 Q Does the youth soccer division have
25 its own separate audit done on an annual basis?
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1 A Yes, it does.
2 Q Is there any reason that those audits
3 or financial statements -- I haven't been able to find
4 in any of the documentation here.
5 A I don't know the reason for that,
6 Madam Chairman, I will be happy to provide those.
7 Q If we could have that as an attachment
8 to your final documents, I would appreciate it.
9 A Okay.
10 Q You weren't here yesterday, so, you
11 know, I certainly don't want to hit you with something
12 that you weren't privy to yesterday, but we did have a
13 long discussion on whether or not the Youth Division
14 and the Amateur Division were truly autonomous from
15 USSF. Could you elaborate on that at all?
16 A I would be happy to. Your first
17 comment was if they're separately incorporated. I
18 think that you have already determined in this room
19 that we have too many lawyers, perhaps, involved in
20 the youth soccer.
21 I'm not going to stipulate to that,
22 however. I think that from a legal perspective that a
23 corporate veil is sometimes something that a lawyer
24 looks at and says, this is a nice thing to have,
25 particularly when we have so many hungry attorneys out
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1 in the world, who would like to sue, and when they
2 start suing, they name everybody they possibly can.
3 And if they have an opportunity to name directors of a
4 corporation, or directors of an organization
5 individually, they will. The corporate veil, to some
6 degree, protects that, so a number of the National
7 State Associations are incorporated as well.
8 The other issue is, is that with
9 incorporation as a non-profit, one can achieve a
10 status with the IRS that allows them to receive
11 donations and to have other kinds of benefits without
12 having to pay taxes on that.
13 And so there's a number of reasons why
14 one would want to be incorporated that are solely and
15 distinctly different from how one would want the
16 perfect organization to operate. And obviously, the
17 perfect organization is one in which we have
18 information flowing both ways and being widely
19 disseminated, and that the control come from a central
20 national governing body.
21 The fact that this organization,
22 United States Youth Soccer Division, is separately
23 incorporated doesn't mean that that doesn't occur. It
24 does, in fact, occur. It doesn't have a lot of the
25 formalities, which I would suspect maybe should be
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1 there, but it does have the day-to-day supervision of
2 the national governing body for things that are
3 happening out in the field, out at the grass-roots
4 level. So even though there's an incorporation there,
5 that doesn't mean that we are autonomous. In my
6 personal --
7 Q So that the USSF should ask their
8 auditors next year to correct that language? They
9 have the identical language two years in a row, saying
10 that they are autonomous legal entities, and I
11 certainly understand the corporate veil. Don't you
12 also from the youth soccer division elect or have on
13 the USSF board a majority of its members? You have
14 five out of nine?
15 A I'm sorry, no, that's not correct.
16 The Federation board is 23.
17 MR. MONACO: 30 elected. 30 voting
18 members.
19 Q And you have five?
20 A And we have five, that's correct.
21 Now, I qualify that in that Dr. Bob is also a member
22 of the board so that would give us six.
23 MR. MONACO: He's not a voting member.
24 It's 30 plus 1.
25 A But he's not there as a youth member,
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1 he's there as the chairman of the coaching committee,
2 so it's a different hat. We all kind of wear a lot of
3 hats.
4 Q But it's your division that elects
5 people to that board?
6 A No, it's the rules of that board that
7 have us serving there. I serve on that board, because,
8 I serve in the capacity as a vice-president youth
9 division, but I serve there because the Federation
10 bylaws say that the chairman of the youth division
11 will serve as vice-president on the Federation board,
12 and that's so that there can be some supervision and
13 some communication and some reporting going on between
14 the divisions.
15 The chairman of the amateur division,
16 the chairman of the professional division likewise are
17 vice-presidents of the Federation and give that same
18 kind of continuity between the two boards.
19 Q Okay. One other question I had was
20 you keep talking about, you know, the volunteers. I
21 do want -- do you realize that every one of your
22 panel sitting here are volunteers?
23 A And I appreciate that.
24 Q Do you also, then would you say that
25 you would not expect this panel to read this material,
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1 and to give a knowledgeable rendering on the issues at
2 hand?
3 A Yes, I would. I would expect you to
4 do that, as the way you are sitting there, I expect my
5 rules committee as volunteers to look at those rules
6 carefully and closely, but I don't expect my moms and
7 dads that are out on the field, slicing oranges and
8 carrying the half-time water to be as knowledgeable
9 about those as either my rules committee or as the
10 panel.
11 Q Most of these, most of this panel has
12 also been moms out cutting oranges, maybe not on a
13 field, but by the side of the pool or at a badminton
14 match or something, but the issue is, you know, you
15 haven't had them this year. Did you have last year's
16 copies?
17 A I believe the 14 that were probably
18 received were probably last year's, '95 and '96.
19 Q Anywhere on record, the 1994 copies?
20 A I don't know the answer to that. That
21 could well be in storage. I don't know where those
22 might be.
23 Q Or 1993? I mean the, again, as a
24 volunteer, where I'm a little horrified is I can
25 understand how large and cumbersome the USSF and its
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1 organization is, but it would appear to me that you
2 have never had a full collection of all 55 of their
3 bylaws. Have we, to your knowledge?
4 A To my knowledge, we have not.
5 MS. BALDWIN: Thank you. Any other
6 questions?
7 MR. TOLES: I remember the question
8 that I was wanting to ask.
9 EXAMINATION
10 BY MR. TOLES:
11 Q Do the youth membership, besides the
12 different playing rules for a 5-year-old versus a
13 17-year-old, do they both pay the same membership fee?
14 A Not necessarily.
15 Q Okay.
16 A Not necessarily. To the division they
17 do; to the Federation there's 50 cents, to the youth
18 division there's 50 cents, but their membership rule
19 varies from state association to state association.
20 Some state associations have a recreational fee, which
21 is 3 or 4 or 5 or $6 per player; some have a
22 competitive fee that may be higher because of the
23 travel and other things that are involved.
24 Q But that's done on a state-by-state
25 basis?
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1 A And even more local.
2 Q Their membership is with the USYSA?
3 A Their membership is with the
4 Federation and the Youth Division.
5 Q And the Youth Division?
6 MS. BALDWIN: Marty said she was
7 bringing a card in.
8 MS. MANKAMYER: The player card and the
9 application.
10 MR. ALKALAY: I don't have copies of
11 these yet.
12 A The memberships are identical.
13 Q The membership are identical?
14 A Yes, they are.
15 Q What information then do athletes
16 receive from either your organization or the United
17 States Soccer Federation when they sign up as a
18 member?
19 A There's a lot of information that they
20 may very well receive, I cannot tell you exactly what
21 they may get at any local registration. I can't tell
22 you what the Chargers Club gets in Colorado Springs,
23 for example. I can tell you the clubs that I have
24 been associated with and what they get; if they're 5-
25 and 6-year-olds, then they would get a set of modified
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1 playing rules. They would get the application form.
2 They would get the player registration card. They
3 might get a welcome to the USYSA brochure that
4 describes what the USYSA is about. Their coach --
5 Q Who sends that out? The local clubs,
6 the state organizations, or does your organization
7 send that out?
8 A The Youth Division is responsible for
9 printing those. They're sent to the state
10 associations, and the state associations get those out
11 to the members.
12 Q How do you know if the state
13 associations distribute that to the members or not?
14 A Again, we have to have some trust in
15 our volunteers, but we know that they're ordering them
16 from us, so if they're ordering them and throwing them
17 away, I wouldn't know that, but I'm anticipating that
18 they are given out. As a former state president, I
19 know that we gave those out.
20 Q Are the bylaws in USYSA distributed to
21 athlete, to the youth athletes?
22 A No. We don't give 5- and 6- and
23 7-year-olds those. We do give the coaches, we do give
24 our administrators those rules and regulations. It
25 was mentioned this morning something about the travel
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1 and tournament manual, the older coaches where there
2 is travel going on receive those in what we call
3 coaches kits. That information is disseminated.
4 MR. TOLES: All right. Thank you.
5 MR. GREGORY: Could I ask a follow-up
6 question or two that was in connection with answers
7 given to the panel?
8 MS. BALDWIN: Yes.
9 EXAMINATION
10 BY MR. GREGORY:
11 Q You were addressing the 100 percent
12 rule, and you were were asked for an example of a
13 proper use of the 100 percent rule and an improper use
14 of the 100 percent rule. And on the improper use of
15 the 100 percent rule, you gave as examples prohibiting
16 a player from playing on a National State Association
17 team or a team coming into a national association
18 league, as I understood your testimony. Did I get it
19 approximately right?
20 A No, that's the first part of it.
21 The second part would be, the
22 reasoning why we would not allow that player to play,
23 we might, improperly, the association might say that
24 you can only play if you bring the entire AYSO
25 organization which you are also registered with into
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1 this association. That would be an improper use. The
2 player has the right to play where he or she wants to
3 play, if they want to play with AYSO and USYSA, and
4 YMCA and SAY, they may, okay.
5 Q But you were addressing, in essence,
6 and I want to make sure whether this was mixing the
7 dual registration, you are recognizing, in essence, a
8 player can be dual registered in as many organizations
9 as the player chooses?
10 A I stipulated to that at 2011 hearing,
11 I am not supposed to talk about that, but yes
12 absolutely, a player can play wherever they want.
13 Q As long as they pay the registration
14 fees for the different places?
15 A And comply to the rules of the various
16 organizations that they belong to, sure.
17 Q Now, if the Plano Sports Authority --
18 I only use that as an example, I said I wasn't going
19 to talk about Plano -- but as an example, some sports
20 authority has a rec program and they want to put their
21 14-, 15-year-old better advanced players into a local
22 club that's affiliated with a National State
23 Association, and they want to take the rest of their
24 recreation players, they want to put them in the, they
25 want to send them over and register them with the AYSO
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1 region.
2 Do you let the sports authority allow
3 its other players to go to the AYSO region?
4 A Now, when we're talking about the
5 player registering, let me make sure I understand
6 this, because if a player is playing with AYSO, yes,
7 they're registered with AYSO, and the bulk of those
8 players may be recreational players, but that player
9 also has the right to come and play for USYSA,
10 assuming that they will pay the registration and
11 affiliate with a team or a club in USYSA, they have
12 all rights and responsibilities to USYSA, just as they
13 do to AYSO, sure.
14 Q Would you say to the Plano, or to the
15 whatever sports authority, that you can't allow, we
16 won't take your older, advanced players, unless all of
17 your 5-, 6-year-olds, and 10, 11, 12 less advanced
18 players, come with them?
19 A Would I say that's improper? Yes, I
20 would.
21 Q You would say it's improper to --
22 A That would be improper use of the 100
23 percent rule, yes, Mr. Toles asked before.
24 Q Okay. On the membership cards, that I
25 guess we're going to see, but I haven't seen it yet.
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1 MR. ALKALAY: I just got this form.
2 Q Is that distributed to the rec
3 players?
4 A Yes, it is. Now, again, when we talk
5 about five-year-olds, I have to tell you that
6 sometimes coaches may hang onto those cards. I know
7 that the coaches Hang onto the registration forms, so
8 that if they do travel or if they have a tournament,
9 or whatever, they have them all in the same notebook,
10 so you don't go to a five-year-old, and say, did you
11 bring your player card today? The coach may very well
12 hang onto those, and usually, you will see them on a
13 little ring when they go to the field, and they get
14 checked before they start to play.
15 But yes, to answer your question, yes,
16 those are issued, and they go out to the state
17 associations, and the state associations give those
18 out to the players through their coaches.
19 Q When do they start issuing them to the
20 rec players?
21 A It's been many, many years.
22 DR. CONTIGUGLIA: Ten years ago?
23 A It's been many years.
24 Q And you know because you are a state
25 association president that they're being distributed?
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1 DR. CONTIGUGLIA: Yes.
2 A I can speak for my own state
3 association, yes, they are.
4 MR. GREGORY: Thank you.
5 MR. ALKALAY: One second.
6 MR. ROWAN: We're done.
7 MS. BALDWIN: She would like to ask one
8 more question, while they're conferring.
9 EXAMINATION
10 BY MS. KELLY:
11 Q It says in your bylaws that each
12 National State Association shall organize and
13 annually, a state soccer forum to coordinate
14 activities and programs and resolve disputes with
15 independent local soccer organizations and the local
16 chapters of affiliates, other affiliates, and
17 associate members.
18 They do that?
19 A (Nod of head.)
20 Q And how do you check on it?
21 A I have not seen a single formalized
22 forum, this is the forum, in any state association. I
23 have seen a number of state associations in which
24 there are joint AYSO/USYSA programs working very well
25 together.
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1 Let me tell you how they do interact.
2 Oftentimes, there's a limited number
3 of fields that are available for play, and what
4 happens is maybe the community through parks and rec,
5 or through the mayor's office, or whatever, schedules
6 these fields with the assistance of the two
7 organizations. They work together on a daily basis to
8 make sure that everyone is getting use of these public
9 facilities.
10 The same thing happens with
11 scheduling. Oftentimes, a community, and let me use
12 Albuquerque for an example, they have a wonderful AYSO
13 tournament, that weekend is AYSO weekend. No one in
14 the USYSA organization would consider going to that
15 fire cracker 4th of July weekend and trying to take
16 away from that, because we attend it.
17 And it's done at the local level, very
18 well. Unfortunately, at our level, we seem to butt
19 heads at times, but at the local level, it's
20 happening. But I have not seen an absolute forum.
21 In New Mexico again, our forum
22 consisted of when I was state president of going to
23 the AYSO Christmas party with Roger Woods and we
24 talked about these issues. He's invited to our AGM to
25 speak and to discuss those issues. So it's much more
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1 an informal sort of thing than it is a written, this
2 is the date the forum will be held.
3 Nationally, I guess we had our first
4 forum. Several weeks ago, the two full boards of AYSO
5 and USYSA met, and we had a great meeting. We have
6 another meeting planned in November, and maybe as
7 these sorts of things continue, it will flow down, and
8 we will see even better relationships.
9 But I don't want to underestimate
10 what's happening or underemphasize what's happening at
11 the grass-roots level: 3.2 million children are
12 playing, they will be playing this weekend, and
13 they're getting along fine. We've got a couple of
14 incidents, and we'll always have those, but hopefully,
15 part of this work at the national level will give us a
16 dispute resolution mechanism to deal with those
17 rapidly and appropriately, and I think we have been
18 doing that, and when I say we, I mean that.
19 MR. ALKALAY: I have nothing further.
20 MR. GREGORY: Nothing further.
21 MS. BALDWIN: Okay. I appreciate you
22 very much staying within this morning's time frame,
23 and thank you.
24 We have decided in agreement between
25 both attorneys that we will not have closing
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1 arguments, and all we need to really determine is a
2 time frame. We have said that we were going to, and
3 the length of your brief --
4 MR. GREGORY: Well keep it under 500
5 pages too.
6 MS. BALDWIN: We have been inundated
7 with paper and in order not to kill any more trees
8 than necessary I would like to see those limited to 10
9 pages, plus any of the documents that you have agreed
10 that you would attach.
11 (Ms. Baldwin conferring with counsel.)
12 MR. ALKALAY: A 10-page brief and a 30
13 page supplement or addendum.
14 MS. BALDWIN: No, no, the documents
15 will be those documents that we have requested and
16 that you have said you would attach at that time.
17 We have said we would render our
18 decision within 30 days. So we would like to have
19 everything you are filing with us, and that final in
20 15 days; if that isn't possible, then we would like to
21 request of you that we have another 15 days, you know,
22 if you can't do it within 25 to 30 days, then we would
23 like at least 15 days after receipt of the documents.
24 MR. GREGORY: We're the complainant.
25 So, we will -- because I will have trouble making your
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1 deadline -- I would say, that it's submitted when the
2 briefs are done, and you have 30 days from then.
3 MR. ROWAN: No.
4 MS. BALDWIN: We have to have a time
5 frame on the briefs too.
6 MR. GREGORY: Oh, I'm not in
7 disagreement. I would like -- well, you said 15 days
8 to turn the briefs in?
9 MS. BALDWIN: Yes. And then we would
10 have 15 days to render our decision, or what I would
11 like for the panel is to have 15 days after receipt of
12 the documents, but I certainly would want any of the
13 briefs filed no later than 21 to 26 days from now;
14 otherwise, it gets to be old news.
15 MR. GREGORY: I think that we will
16 endeavor to make it within the 21 days, and 15 days
17 thereafter for the panel's decision.
18 MS. BALDWIN: All right.
19 MR. GREGORY: But do we see your -- I'm
20 not sure, I picked it up from here -- do we see your
21 decision or is that the date that you make your
22 recommendation to the Board of Directors of the USOC?
23 MR. ROWAN: No, we will make our
24 recommendation to the Board of Directors at the
25 November meeting.
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1 MR. GREGORY: And we will see it
2 though?
3 MS. BALDWIN: You will see it 15 days
4 after you have filed your brief.
5 MR. GREGORY: Thank you.
6 MR. ALKALAY: Thank you. That's fine
7 with me.
8 MS. BALDWIN: Is that fine?
9 MR. GREGORY: Is that double lines or
10 single lines on the papers?
11 MS. BALDWIN: And I suppose you will
12 ask what size font as well?
13 MR. ROWAN: Absolutely.
14 MR. GREGORY: That's a good question.
15 MR. ROWAN: We'll give you some
16 additional guidelines.
17 MR. GREGORY: Pardon?
18 MR. ROWAN: Standard format for briefs.
19 MS. BALDWIN: Double space it, and
20 please let little old tired eyes be able to read it
21 without, I don't know what font size that would be,
22 but...
23 MR. ALKALAY: 12 point.
24 MR. GREGORY: Will we have the
25 transcript? I was asked a question, when will the
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1 transcript be available?
2 MR. ROWAN: The transcript will not be
3 prepared unless either or both of you request the
4 transcript, so that's up to you to do.
5 MR. GREGORY: Yes, we request a
6 transcript.
7 MR. ALKALAY: We do too.
8 MR. ROWAN: So will you share the costs
9 of the transcript?
10 MR. GREGORY: Yes, we will.
11 MR. ALKALAY: Yes.
12 MS. BALDWIN: And provide one copy to
13 the panel.
14 MR. GREGORY: Just one?
15 MR. ROWAN: We'll make our own copies.
16 MR. GREGORY: Okay.
17 MR. ALKALAY: Fine.
18 MR. GREGORY: Will do. That's
19 agreeable.
20 Now, maybe this is negotiation with
21 the court reporter at this point, but when would we
22 receive the transcript ordinarily?
23 THE REPORTER: Ordinarily, 30 days, on
24 a hearing like this one.
25 MR. GREGORY: Should we then expedite
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1 it, so the panel will be able to have it well enough
2 in advance. If we expedite it, then, when would be
3 the time?
4 THE REPORTER: Two weeks.
5 MS. BALDWIN: Which would leave you
6 seven days, after you have --
7 MR. ROWAN: But they don't need the
8 transcript to do the briefs.
9 MS. BALDWIN: I wouldn't think so.
10 MR. GREGORY: Well, it would help.
11 Do you agree?
12 MR. ALKALAY: Actually, I feel, quite
13 frankly, I could do the brief without the transcript.
14 MR. GREGORY: Okay. We'll expedite it,
15 though.
16 MR. ALKALAY: I remember it perfectly.
17 MR. GREGORY: We'll do the expedite.
18 MR. ROWAN: There's exhibits that
19 haven't been entered, membership committee, member
20 card and application.
21 MR. ALKALAY: I thought that was one of
22 the things that you wanted to see. I will attach that
23 to the brief.
24 MR. ROWAN: Any other questions on
25 submissions at this point?
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1 MS. BALDWIN: Let's go over real
2 quickly what we asked him to submit as attachments to
3 the brief. Most of you have all of that because the
4 financials for the Youth Soccer Division.
5 MR. ALKALAY: Do you want our last
6 audit, and the financials that were reviewed in that
7 respect, the yearend?
8 MS. BALDWIN: Yes. The membership
9 card.
10 MR. SATROM: Staffing chart.
11 MS. BALDWIN: Staffing chart for USSF.
12 MR. STEINBRECHER: You wanted staff,
13 you wanted the Federation Board of Directors, USYSA
14 Board of Directors, USASA Board of Directors and
15 Foundation Board of Directors.
16 MR. ALKALAY: And their names.
17 MS. BALDWIN: And their names. All
18 right.
19 Was there anything else, anyone had
20 written down?
21 MR. TOLES: What was Exhibit K?
22 MR. ALKALAY: That was the Mike Morrow.
23 MS. BALDWIN: Mike Morrow and Kit.
24 MR. GREGORY: Would it be useful for
25 the panel if we ask the court reporter to prepare an
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1 exhibit list that can be shared with everybody. So
2 that we would, at least, have that sooner, rather than
3 later, and we could check our completeness?
4 I know that my notes are incomplete.
5 MS. BALDWIN: Send Ron a copy in the
6 next few days, then Ron will send exhibit numbers out
7 to everybody, the panel and attorneys for both sides.
8 Mr. Gregory, what I have asked her to
9 do is to get Ron Rowan a list of those as quickly as
10 possible, and she could read it to us now, but I think
11 that's not as clear, if she could write it down, give
12 it to Ron, and he will get it to both attorneys and
13 the panel.
14 MR. GREGORY: Thank you.
15 MR. ALKALAY: Fine, thank you.
16 MS. BALDWIN: Since we do have so much
17 paper.
18 MR. ALKALAY: Can I just have a quick
19 clarification? What is the date when the brief is
20 due?
21 MS. BALDWIN: Today is the 20th of May,
22 so it would be 21 days from today.
23 MR. MONACO: That's the 10th of June.
24 That's a Tuesday.
25 MS. BALDWIN: So it's due the 10th of
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1 June. Then our decision would be 15 days after the
2 10th, which would be the 25th.
3 If there are no further questions,
4 then, we will adjourn this hearing, and I thank you
5 all for your cooperation.
6 MR. GREGORY: Thank you for your
7 patience and your interest.
8 MR. ALKALAY: Thank you very much.
9 (Respondent's Exhibit N was marked.)
10 (Recessed at 12:00 p.m.)
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1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
2
3 I, DEBRA K. RESLING, Registered Merit
4 Reporter within Colorado, appointed to take the within
5 hearing do certify that the witnesses were duly sworn
6 by me to testify to the truth; that the hearing was
7 taken by me at the Sheraton, Colorado Springs,
8 Colorado on May 19, and 20; then reduced to
9 typewritten form consisting of 501 pages herein; that
10 the foregoing is a true transcript of the questions
11 asked, testimony given and proceedings had.
12
13 I further certify that I am not related to
14 any party herein or their Counsel, and have no
15 interest in the result of this litigation.
16
17 In witness hereof I have hereunto set my
18 hand this 30th day of May, 1997.
19
20 ________________________________
Debra K. Resling, CSR
21 Registered Merit Reporter
and Notary Public.
22 4 Cheyenne Boulevard
Colorado Springs, CO 80906
23 My commission expires February 25, 2001
24
25
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